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Domestic Workers Organizing for Legal Change in Asia

Hosted by Krithika Dinesh, this podcast series delves into the struggles and successes of domestic workers across Asia. In six episodes, meet leaders, experts, and organizers sharing their fight for rights. Stream on IDWF and WIEGO websites or subscribe on Apple, Spotify, and SoundCloud.

Read transcripts here

While there are more domestic workers in Asia than in any other region in the world, organizing in this sector is comparatively recent. In this episode, Fish Ip, the regional coordinator of the International Domestic Workers Federation (IDWF) in Asia, explains how the IDWF organizes domestic workers and shares insights on why governments are slow to ratify the ILO’s international convention for domestic workers, C189.

To learn more about the global domestic workers movement, watch the moment of ratification of C189 or read about the process here. Women in Informal Employment: Globalizing and Organizing (WIEGO) is a global network focused on empowering the working poor, especially women, in the informal economy to secure their livelihoods. International Domestic Workers Federation (IDWF) is a membership-based global organization of domestic and household workers

Credits:Domestic Workers Organising for Legal Change in Asia is a podcast by WIEGO, hosted by Krithika Dinesh, and supported by Zeina Shaaban and Fernanda Valienti, IDWF. Podcast production by Chhavi Sachdev and the team at Sonologue, Sharad Joshi on sound design, music by Raghid Jureidini.

Read transcripts here

Though domestic workers play an essential role in meeting the direct and indirect care needs of households across Asia, almost two thirds remain excluded from national labour laws. Rebecca Napier Moore, the Technical Officer at the International Labour Organisation joins us to discuss “the good, the bad, and the ugly” when it comes to laws and policies for domestic workers in the region. We learn about some of the social, economic, and political developments reshaping the legal landscape across Asia.
Read about ILO’s research here and here. Women in Informal Employment: Globalizing and Organizing (WIEGO) is a global network focused on empowering the working poor, especially women, in the informal economy to secure their livelihoods. International Domestic Workers Federation (IDWF) is a membership-based global organization of domestic and household workers

Credits: Domestic Workers Organising for Legal Change in Asia is a podcast by WIEGO, hosted by Krithika Dinesh, and supported by Zeina Shaaban and Fernanda Valienti, IDWF. Podcast production by Chhavi Sachdev and the team at Sonologue, Sharad Joshi on sound design, music by Raghid Jureidini.

Read transcripts here

In Hong Kong an estimated 400,000 migrant domestic workers play a critical role in keeping the global city running. Despite being covered by many of the same labour protections as local workers, migrant workers face a range of challenges in seeking redress for abusive working conditions. In this episode union leaders Jec and Sarah discuss domestic worker protections and entitlements in Hong Kong and also share the story of a migrant domestic worker. Jec is the general secretary of the Hong Kong Federation of Asian Domestic Workers Unions (FADWU) and Sarah, the Vice President of the Union of Nepalese Domestic Workers in Hong Kong.

Read about migrant domestic workers’ challenges. Women in Informal Employment: Globalizing and Organizing (WIEGO) is a global network focused on empowering the working poor, especially women, in the informal economy to secure their livelihoods. International Domestic Workers Federation (IDWF) is a membership-based global organization of domestic and household workers

Credits: Domestic Workers Organising for Legal Change in Asia is a podcast by WIEGO, hosted by Krithika Dinesh, and supported by Zeina Shaaban and Fernanda Valienti, IDWF. Podcast production by Chhavi Sachdev and the team at Sonologue, Sharad Joshi on sound design, music by Raghid Jureidini.

Read transcripts here

In 2017, domestic workers were included in two major pieces of legislation in Nepal: the Labour Act and the Social Security Act. But implementation has been slow. Convincing municipalities to provide the resources needed to register domestic workers and to expand social security coverage to these workers is a struggle. In this episode, Gyanu Kshatri, the general secretary of the Home Based Workers Union in Nepal, talks about these challenges and the strategies they use to combat stigma and make sure that domestic work is recognised as valued and dignified work!

Read about Nepal’s social security law. Women in Informal Employment: Globalizing and Organizing (WIEGO) is a global network focused on empowering the working poor, especially women, in the informal economy to secure their livelihoods. International Domestic Workers Federation (IDWF) is a membership-based global organization of domestic and household workers

Credits: Domestic Workers Organising for Legal Change in Asia is a podcast by WIEGO, hosted by Krithika Dinesh, and supported by Zeina Shaaban and Fernanda Valienti, IDWF. Podcast production by Chhavi Sachdev and the team at Sonologue, Sharad Joshi on sound design, music by Raghid Jureidini.

Read transcripts here

The Philippines is the only Asian country to ratify the international domestic workers convention C189. And in 2013, the Philippines passed the Domestic Workers Act. What does it take to translate legal victories into real change in workers’ lives? Himaya, the general secretary of the United Domestic Workers Union in the Philippines, unpacks the key features of the law, the role of local governments, and the strategies the union uses to support workers in navigating practical challenges.

Read more about the law. Women in Informal Employment: Globalizing and Organizing (WIEGO) is a global network focused on empowering the working poor, especially women, in the informal economy to secure their livelihoods. International Domestic Workers Federation (IDWF) is a membership-based global organization of domestic and household workers

Credits: Domestic Workers Organising for Legal Change in Asia is a podcast by WIEGO, hosted by Krithika Dinesh, and supported by Zeina Shaaban and Fernanda Valienti, IDWF. Podcast production by Chhavi Sachdev and the team at Sonologue, Sharad Joshi on sound design, music by Raghid Jureidini.

Read transcripts here

Domestic workers in Indonesia have spent more than two decades fighting for legislation to protect their rights. Their key challenge is how to build political will among parliamentarians who benefit from the status quo as employers of domestic workers. . In this episode, Lita Anggraini, the co-founder and national coordinator of the National Network for Domestic Workers Advocacy, known as JALA PRT, discusses some of the research, mobilization and advocacy strategies they’ve used over the years.

Read about the strike and about Lita. Women in Informal Employment: Globalizing and Organizing (WIEGO) is a global network focused on empowering the working poor, especially women, in the informal economy to secure their livelihoods. International Domestic Workers Federation (IDWF) is a membership-based global organization of domestic and household workers

Credits: Domestic Workers Organising for Legal Change in Asia is a podcast by WIEGO, hosted by Krithika Dinesh, and supported by Zeina Shaaban and Fernanda Valienti, IDWF. Podcast production by Chhavi Sachdev and the team at Sonologue, Sharad Joshi on sound design, music by Raghid Jureidini.

Read transcripts here

Other options to stream

https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/9fcb0abd-e76c-4e79-a5ed-c3fd639ac60e/domestic-workers-organizing-for-legal-change-in-asia

Read Transcript here

Krithika Dinesh:

Hello, and welcome to a podcast about Domestic Workers Organizing For Legal Change In Asia. In this limited series podcast, you’ll hear from experts across Asia who worked to ensure the realization of domestic workers’ rights by campaigning for law reforms, lobbying government officials responsible for implementing legislation, and representing workers when their rights have been violated. They share breakthroughs, setbacks, and ongoing struggles.

I’m your host Krithika Dinesh. And in this first episode, we’re joined by Fish, who is the regional coordinator of the International Domestic Workers Federation, IDWF, in Asia. Despite having the most domestic workers in the world, organizing domestic workers in Asia is more recent compared to other regions. Domestic workers are, by nature of their work in private homes, isolated as a group. Traditional mindsets about servitude and home life make it hard for domestic workers to see themselves as workers. Fish walks us through what organizing looks like in this context and unpacks the different ways domestic workers achieve collective rights, including how domestic workers’ organizations are registered and recognized by governments and employers.

Fish also shares insights about why there’s little update by national governments of Convention 189, which is the international convention for domestic workers’ rights, and what actions IDWF is taking to change this? Stay tuned till the end to hear about Fish’s journey in the domestic workers movement.

Thank you so much, Fish, for joining us today. To start us off, could you tell us a little bit about IDWF and its presence in Asia?

Fish:

In the IDWF, we have 88 affiliates in 68 countries. The affiliates are all domestic workers, membership-based unions, if they are allowed to form unions, or associations. In Asia, we have 17 affiliates from 14 countries, many of them formed in the past 20-30 years. If we talk about organizing domestic workers in Asia, it is relatively younger compared to other regions like Latin America.

Krithika Dinesh:

That’s really interesting. Why is that the case that it’s much more recent in Asia?

Fish:

Actually, Asia has the biggest number of domestic workers in the world. It is the region that has the biggest number of domestic workers. I don’t have a particular answer for that, probably because we still have a lot of traditional thinking about how people see domestic workers, as maids and servants. And that really has given much constraint for domestic workers to be recognized, not only for the public and the society, how they see them as workers, but also the domestic workers themselves very often don’t see themselves as domestic workers. So many of our affiliates in the forming of the organization, they do a lot of training and education, reaching out to talk to the domestic workers one by one bit by bit, to, to talk with them, and to aware them, you know, you are a worker. So we really start from the very fundamental and basic.

Krithika Dinesh:

That leads to my second question. So just for the listeners, once C189 gets ratified, what happens? Are countries then mandated to have reforms in their national systems?

Fish:

Oh, yes. Once C189, the International Labor convention on domestic workers was ratified, was adopted in 2011. Then the member states of the UN, different countries have to do their homework. So they have to check on their law and also ratify the convention. Ratification means they have to make sure that their laws and policies are in line with C189, which is basically recognition of domestic workers’ rights and status as workers.

Krithika Dinesh:

And how has this worked in Asia? Have you seen many countries going and just ratifying and changing the laws? Or has it been more difficult since 2011?

Fish:

Yeah, since 2011, very sadly. Until now, we only have one country that has ratified C189, the Philippines. Only one. Yeah. I think Asia and MENA region, the Middle East and North Africa, are really in the bottom line if we talk about the rise for domestic workers. So in Asia, we have the Philippines, in the Philippines, they have the Kasambahay law, meaning the domestic workers law, they have some wage protection, social protection, etc. And our affiliates UNITED, has been doing organizing and has been a lot of dialogues with the governments in other countries. Many of us, the affiliates in Asia, have been fighting for inclusion of domestic workers in the labor law. For example, in Nepal, the labor law has been changed in 2017. So now domestic workers are recognized in the labor law. And the countries who are fighting for a separate domestic workers law, if it is too much difficult to change the labor law. So currently, actually, Indonesia that JALA PRT organizing domestic workers and has established eight domestic workers unions in ex provinces, they are fighting for their domestic workers law to be adopted at the parliament. So there have been ongoing protests in front of the parliament in Indonesia.

Krithika Dinesh:

Wow, that’s really inspiring. And so you spoke about these affiliates in different countries. So could you tell us more about who these affiliates are? What’s the nature and how are they organized? Are they trade unions? And earlier you spoke about membership based organizations – what do those look like?

Fish:

Yes, our affiliates are all democratically run membership based organizations and union meaning it is the members to decide for the Union the highest decision making the domestic workers at the annual general meeting or Congresses. So they will elect the leadership of domestic workers to operate and execute plan that proposed by the domestic workers and solve some problems when they have and also to negotiate and to represent domestic workers, when there will be dialogues with the government with the others and media interview etc. In Asia, we don’t have a lot of registered unions: only Hong Kong, Philippines, Nepal, India, where we have registered domestic workers union, meaning they are registered as union and they have got protection under the trade union laws in the countries and they have the union status. If we talk about bargaining and representation. The majority of the affiliates in Asia have domestic workers registered as Association.They may register as association or they may just have a group but not registered. So we also have one affiliate in South Korea who is running as registered cooperatives.

Krithika Dinesh:

Okay. And registering as a trade union would you say is more advantageous? What are the advantages like once you’re registered as a trade union of domestic workers.

Fish:

Once we are registered as a trade union of course, we are seen as union we are in the union movement although even when we are organizing the association there is still some hope how the other unions see us how the government see as is still sometimes they see us as NGO, but actually, under the definition of the ILO any workers organizations are unions. So, all our affiliates are just the same as unions under the definition of the ILO, but they may not get the union registration by the government. So, if we are able to get registered as a union, it depends on the national law on trade union protection. For example, in Hong Kong, the trade union ordinance protects the rights of unions in a few ways, for example, the union representative can represent workers at the Labor tribunal. At the labor tribunal, employers, workers cannot hire lawyers to ensure the cost will be not too much. And also to ensure that the workers have easier access and process for the labor tribunal. And it is the union who has its status to be able to represent the workers. And if the members, the workers being the workers being members of the trade union, then the employers cannot discriminate against the workers or fire, dismiss the workers due to their union activities. So these are some very basic trade union protection, if we are able to get registered. And then in other countries where the trade union has more protection, legally speaking, they may have collective bargaining agreements set so that the trade union will be sitting in the collective bargaining agreement table with employers and also the government so that they can set together to stand up for the conditions.

Krithika Dinesh:

Okay, you mentioned the negotiation table, the employers, government and the domestic worker, organization or union. So, I’ve been interested to know about the employers or employers organized across Asia, are the employers organizations, what does employers organizing look like?

Fish:

Yes, the employers of domestic workers are individuals in different households. So if you compare to the employers or Business Association, who are companies cooperates enterprises, that is very much different from the employers of domestic workers who are individual and when the employers have domestic workers or individual domestic workers are working in private households, then actually the government has a bigger role to play in this.So if we are talking about the employers of domestic workers, whether there have been association so informed, this is also an important question because many of the employers are not organized into their association. So that will give a question mark on who will be sitting in the negotiation table representing the employers, but somehow we do have a feel of the organization that represents employers. We have employers of migrant domestic workers association in Hong Kong, they have always been the spokesperson for all the issues of domestic workers representing employers in Hong Kong. And in other cases, some of our free days, we reach out to the residents’ association, or the house owners associations, who often hire domestic workers and can represent the employers of domestic workers. So we also reach out to these associations of residents or apartment or area residents association to pay the counterpart of the domestic workers in the negotiation table.

Krithika Dinesh:

Okay, so that is how employers are sort of organizing or organized. And what about domestic workers we spoke a bit about at the organizational level, but as we all know, domestic workers work in private homes, they are often isolated from each other. They don’t have office spaces to sort of meet their colleagues or any other opportunity to discuss their working conditions. So in such a situation, how do domestic workers organize like, could you just walk our listeners through the basic steps of how organizing for domestic workers looks like?

Fish:

Yeah. Many people will say organizing domestic workers is difficult in the sense that if you compare to organizing other workers, you just go to the factory in one workplace, you have everybody, every worker is there. But for domestic workers, they are scattered into different private households. So that means we have to walk a lot, we have to reach out to the community to the area go to house to house to talk to the domestic workers, and domestic workers to come out to do shopping, for food for their employees in the markets, we go to the markets, we go to the bus or public transport to talk to them. And if they have weekly day off, they have usually they get together in parks or gardens, like in the countries of destination of migrant workers, the migrant domestic workers often will come together in certain area, usually in the parks, or in somewhere that is comfortable for them to meet with people from the same country to enjoy their home food, the food from their home, country, etc.

So we need to do a lot of community based organizing, and walk a lot and talk to the workers one by one, talking to workers one by one. And we organize activities sometimes, actually, very often we organize the activities in the home of the domestic workers, or the back yard, in places where domestic workers leave. Or if there is, if there is a good employer, we can talk to the employer or the village head to share their home space for us to have domestic workers to meet. So very often we have different area groupings in the community.

Krithika Dinesh:

And is organizing more difficult with live-in domestic workers, domestic workers who live within the employers’ homes – do you use special strategies to reach them? I know in some countries, they reach out through social media or WhatsApp, because it’s sometimes very difficult for the worker to just get out and meet anybody.

Fish:

Currently, IDWF, the most organized, has either left out domestic workers working for multiple households, because they really can have their own time in their own house, although they do have family responsibility, which is another heavy burden for them. But they are more accessible than live in domestic workers for live in domestic workers, if they have quickly day off than is still better, for example, the migrant domestic workers in Hong Kong and some of the migrant domestic workers in Taiwan, Singapore, then you’ll find everybody in the park, then it is still reachable, but for migrant domestic workers who are living and also prohibited for going out of their home and even weekly day off than that is the most difficult and they are the most vulnerable to the abuses and exploitation. So, some of them, many of them are even restricted to mobile phones, not to say social media.

So with that, we have reached out to different Facebook groupings, because for migrant domestic workers, they will certainly want to look for their friends from their home country. So we reach out to different groups from social media and talk to them and some migrant domestic workers may have better employers or maybe we talk to the employer to allow the workers to have a weekly day off to come out to do some work. And then bit by bit she also knows the neighbors who are the other migrant domestic workers around, and then we talk to them and bit by bit, try to get the workers to have a day off or time off to join the organization or activities.

We do have some successful cases, turning migrant domestic workers without a day off to having a day off and having become a leader. Yes. So we have cases when, for example, in Malaysia around five years ago, there was a migrant domestic workers leader, who was being requested by another migrant domestic worker, her friend, to buy some sanitary products, napkins for her. So that worker bought sanitary products and napkins for her friend. And she was knocking at the door and it was an employer. So the employer was so surprised. In Malaysia, in general, the migrant domestic workers don’t have any weekly day off. So the employer was so surprised how come another migrant domestic worker can go out and go around on Sunday and buy the sanitary products and napkins for her own worker.

So then the leader talked to the employer, “Yes, I have the weekly day off, my employer gave me… how she feels better for herself, etc, etc.” And that inspired the employer and that employer later on, to allow her own worker to have a weekly day off and to join the organization or activities.

Another problem is the private employment agencies: very often, the workers pay huge amounts of money to the private employment agencies; the employers, some of them also pay a sum, then the private employment agencies are basically the controlling body for both employers and workers.

They want to make sure that the workers will pay the agency fee in debt, and then they will ensure that the workers will not be totally under their control so that they can ensure the money will be paid. That for the excessive agency fee. The employer also pays a sum and with traditional thinking, domestic workers being amazing servants, they feel they are their property. And so once they pay the agency fee it strengthens their feelings of owning the domestic workers, estimated servants and poverty. Sothey further restrict the domestic workers. Freedom of movement.

Krithika Dinesh:

Okay, so for migrant domestic workers, it’s harder because they’re from a foreign country, the employer is much more biased against them and has greater control over their movement?

Fish:

Yeah. And the biggest problem is, even the governments don’t see the private households, someone somewhere that you can check on. Because, yeah, we respect privacy, but at the same time, these private households are also a workplace. Once you have hired somebody, then there should be labor inspection. The workplace is just the same as other workplaces, like factories and shops. But these private houses are not being checked, not being inspected. And the domestic workers themselves often do not have access to complain channels. If we come to the police station, they will come to the labor offices, they also have a general feeling that we are amazing servants, and especially when there are no domestic workers laws, then how will you file a complaint?

Fish:

So yeah so this is a very big problem here.

Krithika Dinesh:

So you mentioned how domestic workers are seen as maids, servants, almost treated like slaves. And you have worked in this movement for decades. So have you seen a big shift in attitudes of employers or governments in sort of recognizing them as workers? Especially in those countries where there are laws that come in, did that help bring the shift?

Fish:

I can see it’s really shifting, I still remember in 2011, when we got the 789, the domestic workers international labor convention adopted is like, Oh, we cannot believe it is like magic. Yeah, we have been just doing a lot of organizing, making changes. We feel it’s like little, literally two things, we have made changes, but then literally little by little the change becomes big, even if we can, we could get an International Labor Standard on domestic workers. So the same is like our organizing work, which is daily basis, we handle and solve a lot of matters, and the spells and abuses and cases and do education and training, the change on the workers themselves, to recognize themselves as a human being as a worker, being able to speak up to the employer being able to be confident, more and confident to their own employer and also to the society to speak up in front of the village head or the government officers and other people.

When we talk about this, we are also talking about enabling society to have gender equality, to have women leadership, when we have women and domestic workers to speak up for themselves. And very often, when we are handling cases, for example, when there are beings, that you know, the employers just see domestic workers are maids, servants, and nobody, but then certainly when we mobilize and show up and turn up in front of the employers, then then they feel scared, scared in the way that how can these domestic workers can speak in front of me that can have like a magic in front of the employers, because they have been looking down on domestic workers and then they speak up certainly, then then they they of course, they never imagined that can be like that. And especially in the mass media, if you have a voice and voices and leadership represented in the mass media and the public, then you have a face. And it is the domestic workers who are talking about their issues. So the issues are real life issues and not made up issues. So these are all changes. And I have seen that bit by bit change.

Krithika Dinesh:

So the shift almost comes from bottom up and also, the international recognition – strengthens the bottom up empowerment. And it’s because domestic workers are more organized, speaking up more than now they’re being recognized more.

Fish:

Yes. Especially being a woman, being a domestic worker, being a migrant from a far away country to speak up. And then the society cannot reject listening to them. That’s the change.

Krithika Dinesh:

Yeah. And Fish before we let you go, I know you’ve been part of the domestic workers movement for more than 20 years now. So what inspired you to join the movement? And what keeps you going?

Fish:

Frankly speaking, in the beginning, I didn’t expect to work in the Union for so long. I come from a working-class family. My mother worked in garment factories and did some part-time domestic work. My father was a construction site manager, not at the lowest rank, but still low-ranking. I started working with some sense of social justice, like everyone else. Initially, I thought I’d work for two years and then explore new opportunities, as young people often do.

But I ended up staying in the domestic workers movement. One thing that really touched me was when we faced numerous problems like poverty, economic crises, and family issues. Despite these challenges, I was a frontline organizer. We held weekly gatherings where members shared their problems, experiences, and even cooking tips. When we discussed problems, everyone pitched in with ideas on how to solve them, bringing a sense of hope. Despite facing big problems, workers being together and sharing wisdom brought hope.

We tried different activities and approaches to solve problems gradually, making changes. This collective effort was powerful. We also engaged in protests and meetings with government officials. The first action I organized was a protest at an employment agency. Initially, a domestic worker was scared and hid behind a banner, but later, she became the MC for a Labor Day Rally.

One memorable encounter was when we met the labor secretary. We discussed how domestic work made our hands rough and caused occupational illnesses. So, we organized a handshake session with the labor secretary, making him feel the roughness of our hands. It was a fun experience. Despite the difficulties, we found humor, hope, and took action. Building the confidence to stand up and speak up is essential for everyone, it’s basic humanity.

Krithika Dinesh:

Let’s hope that there is more hope in the world.

Fish:

And yes, being together, bringing people together, we can always have hope.

Krithika Dinesh:

Thank you again, Fish for joining us today and giving us these amazing insights into what it takes to organize domestic workers, both locally and regionally. I think the stories you shared with us today will really stay with us. Domestic workers rights are, as you highlighted, extremely difficult to fight for when workers are so isolated from each other, and don’t necessarily see themselves as workers. I hope that organizing in Asia grows from strength to strength. And thank you for listening, everybody. To read more about the domestic workers movement in Asia. Please check the links in the description. In our next episode, we’ll be joined by special guests from the International Labor Organization who will walk us through different legal frameworks available to domestic workers in Asian countries. Until then, it’s goodbye from me.

Guest: Fish – Regional co-ordinator of the International Domestic Workers Federation (IDWF) in Asia
Host: Krithika Dinesh
Podcast production: Chhavi Sachdev and the team at Sonologue: Sharad Joshi on sound design.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Krithika Dinesh:
Hello, and welcome back to a podcast series Domestic Workers Organizing For Legal Change In Asia. In this episode, we continue to look at region wide trends. Almost two thirds of domestic workers remain fully excluded from national labor laws in Asia. And the ratification of international labor conventions, is notably lower than in other parts of the world. Yet, domestic workers play an essential role in meeting direct and indirect care needs of households across Asia. How can we leverage the increasing attention on the care economy to push for change? We’re very excited to have Rebecca Napier Moore with us today. She’s a technical officer of the International Labor Organization, and has deep expertise on the labor conditions, legal protections and organizing strategies of domestic workers across the region. We discussed the good, the bad and the ugly. When it comes to laws and policies for domestic workers. We learn about some of social, economic and political developments reshaping the legal landscape across Asia. Thank you so much, again, Rebecca for agreeing to do the podcast. It’s really good to have you here. So just to start us off, could you tell us a bit about the International Labor Organization’s work related to domestic workers in Asia?
Rebecca Napier Moore:
Sure. So first of all, we’re grounded in research. And in the last few years, we’ve done studies on legal progress since convention 189, the domestic workers convention, we’ve done policy gap analyses to see what needs to change in a country’s laws for the country to comply with C189, we’ve done studies looking at working conditions in the sector, skill levels in the sector. So asking domestic workers what tasks they’re actually doing, and then matching that up with internationally agreed skills classification. Then we’ve looked at levels of recruitment costs for migrant domestic workers, and appetite for Social Security inclusion among domestic workers and their employers. So all of these we’re doing with domestic workers involvement, which is really key for us. And from there, we work with domestic workers to advocate for change. So we hold with policy makers and media for domestic workers to get their messages out. Last year, for instance, in Thailand, domestic workers talked with the Social Security office staff a few times and its board members. And then also, we hugely support domestic workers organizing in current associations or unions, as well as the formation of new groups. So I’m excited to tell you that in Myanmar, there is the establishment of a new domestic worker Association. And in Malaysia, there have been formation of new groups and Singapore. So all within the last three years, quite a lot of progress in organizing that we’ve been able to support, but domestic workers are really doing it. And then, and then we’re promoting policy change, and countries ratification of C 189. And sometimes this is advocacy, sometimes technical advice on laws when governments ask us for our help. And sometimes it’s getting all the parties around the table through tripartite dialogues.
Krithika Dinesh:
Okay, fantastic. So you spoke a lot about work related to convention 189. And I had noticed that in Asia, like there’s actually a very low level of ratification. So could you tell us like, what do you think the reasons could be for this?
Rebecca Napier Moore:
Sure. It’s, it’s hard to say exactly what reasons are. But one reason is that overall, Asia’s level of ratification of any international labor convention is low. So not just ratification levels for C 189. Specifically. And if you look within the region, East Asia and the Pacific, are ratifying at a significantly lower rate than the rest of Asia. Several countries in the last couple of years have started to ratify some conventions, mostly the fundamental conventions around freedom of association and collective bargaining, forced and child labor discrimination and OSH and they’ve started doing this after these long periods of what we call ratification drought. So hopefully, hopefully there is some momentum gaining. More specific to C 189, however, is the lack of recognition of domestic work as real work in the region. We did a study a few years back, looking at discourse in Southeast Asia where domestic workers are called helpers and these maids, not workers. And when you start from there even looking at what like, what wording is used in national languages, terminology can get pretty demeaning, and rarely signifying that domestic workers are squarely workers with rights to an eight hour work day to minimum wage, etc. So without seeing domestic workers as workers, there’s little progress to extend labor protections in the sector. And then from there to ratify, C 189.
Krithika Dinesh:
So there’s this low level of ratification, but that aside, like, have you seen that there have been any major shifts that have occurred in different countries since the invention 189 came into place? And I don’t know if this would be too much to ask, but could you say that these changes that came in place are related to the adoption of 789?
Rebecca Napier Moore:
Sure. So I think, I think in the Philippines, we can probably say, we could probably see a relation to C 189. So in the Philippines, in 2013, after ratifying 789, and the government adopted comprehensive legislation for domestic workers, recognizing domestic work as a formal labor sector, requiring a contract, minimum wage, and employer paid social security coverage, so I think that one we can point to a change after the convention, then there’s a couple of other things I can talk about recent changes we’ve seen, that may not necessarily be related. So one is in Malaysia, recently, the legal term domestic servants, had been on the books for a long time and really set the scene for negative social norms. And this was changed to domestic employees. So that’s a win. Also, in Malaysia, Social Security has recently been extended to domestic workers, which is a huge change from the Social Security office there. And this is in a country where employers are still not legally obliged to pay minimum wage. So that’s the fact that their Social Security is really great. Another thing that’s changed in recent years has been a change to restrictions on migration for domestic work. And in 2017, we did a study in the ILO on gender related bans on women moving within Southeast Asia, to seek paid work. So moving for labor migration. And at that time, several countries that we were looking at Philippines, Indonesia, Myanmar, Cambodia, Lao PDR, all had various kinds of bans on women moving and including bans on moving for domestic work. So a few years on now, I’m happy to say that almost all of these countries, and except the Philippines, which still has a couple of restrictions, nearly all the countries have removed the bans on migration for domestic work, and are working to increase the labor protections for women migrant domestic workers doing this through mo use or other bilateral agreements.
Krithika Dinesh:
So these legal changes that have come about have happened, would you say because of the organizing efforts of domestic workers, because you mentioned in the beginning how you work with closely with domestic worker organizations and movements to, for advocacy. So could you tell us a bit more about what the organizing seen across Asia looks like? Have there been any different subjects and organizing in Asia?
Rebecca Napier Moore:
Yes. Okay. October 26, is day 73 of Indonesian domestic workers hunger strike. Our friends at the National Network on Domestic Worker Advocacy, which is called PRT. Our domestic worker leader friends in Indonesia and other domestic worker groups are hunger striking for the government to pass the domestic workers protection bill. This is something that the deliberation on the bill began in May. The bill was first proposed almost 20 years ago, in 2004. And the bill would insist on written contracts, it would penalize violence, it would create an avenue for complaints and then introduced rights to training, health insurance and social security. So the workers are really insisting now and they’ve called for this for a long time. And finally, we have gotten to the place where hunger striking is the last resort to get this bill passed activists on the ground say they’re really hopeful that their efforts are going to work, and the bill will pass. Amazingly, however, the bill still does not set a minimum wage, or maximum hours for domestic workers. So lots of new protections, but not everything. You asked me also about laws across the region earlier. So I’ll segue a little bit to some findings from a review we did for the 10th anniversary of C 189. And we have seen that in Asia and the Pacific 61.5% of domestic workers remain fully excluded from labor laws. And on the other hand, no country is fully including them in general labor laws. So countries have instead tended to adopt specific laws on the sector, just like Indonesia is looking to do. And while this approach can be seen as an effort to ensure sector specific protections for domestic workers, domestic work specific laws, don’t tend to afford domestic workers the same rights and protection as other workers and domestic workers receive less favorable entitlements. There’s also some really big changes happening right now in East Asia, economies are rapidly aging, and having to open up to migrant care workers for the first time. And so a few countries are opening up their immigration rules, relaxing restrictions, and having to figure out what labor laws will cover incoming migrant domestic workers. Unfortunately, in some places, this course is looking quite bad, with countries wanting to emulate other countries in the region like Hong Kong and Singapore, that have quite low pay for domestic workers. So in the Republic of Korea, there are newly announced plans to bring in domestic workers to work for lower wages than nationals, domestic worker organizations, they’re pretty vocal against this. In Southeast Asia trade union, organizing for domestic workers remains restricted in policy. Some places the restriction isn’t about domestic workers, but is about migrants. So restrictions saying migrants can’t become leaders of a union or migrants can’t join unions. And in countries where domestic workers are almost exclusively migrants, the effect is the same that it’s impossible for domestic workers to organize into unions. Domestic workers also have really practical barriers to organizing, so time poverty, inability to leave the households, they’re living and working in low wages, and leading to a low capacity to pay union dues. Low awareness among unions about the rights of domestic workers as workers. And then there’s also the labor intensiveness that it takes for unions to organize domestic workers, one worker at a time, one workplace at a time, because workers are quite isolated working in different households.
Krithika Dinesh:
Wow. So what would you’ve mentioned a lot of, say bad laws like where there are no minimum wages, the restrictions on maximum hours or restrictions on migrant workers moving about? So could you tell us if there are any examples of good laws or good policies that are there for domestic workers in some of these countries?
Rebecca Napier Moore:
I already mentioned the Philippines adopted comprehensive legislation for domestic workers in 2013, after they ratified the Convention, and the Philippines really shines in the region. I mentioned before that Malaysia has Social Security inclusion for domestic workers, including migrants, we just had a great meeting with Malaysia’s Social Security office and domestic workers there in June to see how more domestic workers could be reached for inclusion, and maybe also how more benefits within Social Security could be extended. Malaysia also has committed in its national action plan on forced labor to consider adoption of the minimum wage order for domestic workers. And this comes on the back of ratification of the ILO forced labor protocol. So sometimes we can use other conventions besides C 189, to push for rights for domestic workers. In Singapore, there’s a couple of really good practices there. So domestic workers do you have to have health insurance. There’s compulsory training for first time employers and first time domestic workers. And Singapore last year started follow ups with migrant domestic workers in their first year, in their first year, within Singapore, so making sure that somebody checks in with them.In January, this year, there was also policy change in Singapore, and sharing that employers must give domestic workers one day off a month. So while domestic workers do one day off every week, there’s a regulation that this can be compensated so that employers can ask domestic workers to work on their Sunday off and pay them for that, which, in some cases meant in practice, that people were never getting a day off. So now, they really have to get at least one of those Sundays off per month. In Thailand, there’s quite a lot more flexibility for domestic workers. And I think this flexibility and policy means that domestic workers have quite a bit more freedom. So living in is not required where it is, and Singapore and Malaysia, nor is an employer paid Levy. So in Singapore and Malaysia, there is a tax to employ a domestic worker, Thailand has a draft to reform ministerial regulation on domestic work that if passed, would allow inclusion in minimum wage hours and maternity leave regulations. So that would be really good if that happened in Thailand, and hopefully, that’s on the horizon coming up.
Krithika Dinesh:
And what would you say about once these laws are in place? Because the domestic worker sector so unique, like, workers work in private homes, they’re scattered across the city or town? So have you seen or heard about what are some of the practical challenges that, you know, countries face where they actually sort of start implementing these policies or laws?
Rebecca Napier Moore:
Let me talk about two kinds of challenges that I’ve heard recently which are challenges to both pass a law and then to implement. So the first is that employers do want domestic workers to work more than eight hours. And right now, this is normal practice. And there’s concern that care needs of a country won’t be met, if instead of one person working and on standby for 24 hours, to care for a terminally ill person or a baby. So instead of this work around the clock, there would need to be as three people doing three eight hour shifts, which becomes a hugely different prospect in terms of how costly that is, as well as shifts the live in arrangement with in a household because making room for three people or allowing three people to live out is it different setup then many countries have now. And this issue about standby hours is pretty clear within C 189. The standby hours are hours when a worker cannot freely leave and do what they want. And they should be paid and, and count as work hours. But there are arguments here that these aren’t working hours. And any regulation of hours in the sector means defining stand by hours and potentially running afoul of C 189. And another sticky point that tends to be talked about is around Labor inspection. And there are worries that if a workplace can’t be inspected, then it can’t be governed. So this, there’s this logic that laws shouldn’t be put in place if they aren’t enforceable. And however, this is a bit of a tautological kind of circular excuse. The ILO has done a lot of work, showing that methods of inspection are possible. And in any case, non inspection doesn’t negate that domestic workers are workers, like any other worker and need protections and need to be included within labor laws.
Krithika Dinesh:
So we’ve talked about a lot of these grim laws and very bare minimum laws that are there and restrictions and organizing across Asia. So what do you think if we could have a more ideal world? What are the sort of key shifts that needs to happen for domestic workers rights to be realized? And what have you seen some of the upcoming opportunities for change in these areas?
Rebecca Napier Moore:
So, as I’ve been kind of alluding to in previous answers to questions you asked me is that full inclusion in labor laws is really a must. And changes needed in mindset to get to a norm, where societies think that and really believe that all workers deserve eight hour days, minimum wage, and rest. And to get to a norm where societies think and agree that care economies need shoring up through public funding, and realizing that current practices of caring for members of society through domestic workers working long hours, and for low pay, or exploitative ways to meet the care needs of a country. In Southeast Asia, and other parts of Asia, formal care systems really are not well developed. And then domestic work becomes essential to the delivery of care. But it’s on an unequal basis, where more well off families can’t afford it. And less well, our families need to quit jobs to be able to meet the care needs within their households. A recent study found that, on average within three main destination countries in Southeast Asia, Thailand, Malaysia and Singapore, on average 62% of domestic workers are doing direct care work, and 99% are doing indirect care work, the cooking and cleaning. And when we looked at what tasks people are doing, we are able to measure against the international standard classification of occupations that domestic workers are doing medium skilled work, and that the care work that they’re undertaking, is medium skilled. In the pandemic we as societies came to a place of recognizing that care work is essential. And our study showed that it’s also skilled. So we have skilled and essential workers, but workers that are continuing to work in poor conditions. We saw in the same study that domestic workers are reporting conditions that meet the ILOs definition of forced labor on a pretty high rate. So it was 29% In Malaysia, 7% in Singapore and 4% in Thailand. And I’ve shifted a little bit in this last answer to talk about care work. More specifically, and I think upcoming on the horizon, the care work discussion is our opportunity to make some changes. So the 112 International Labor Congress next year in 2024, will include a general discussion on decent work and the care economy. And after COVID, there really is new attention being placed on care work. And we’ve been advocating that in care discussions at national levels and at global levels, that domestic workers need to be represented, and that their working conditions and even their own care needs, for their families need to be centered in global agendas.
Krithika Dinesh:
Thank you so much for joining us today, Rebecca, and for giving us these valuable insights. It’s incredulous how we still have so little in terms of legal protection for domestic workers. Despite the essential role they play in providing care for the old and the young. I hope that Asia sees many more ratifications, the full inclusion of domestic workers and labor laws, and real changes in their lives as a result of this. And a big thank you for listening, all of you. I hope you enjoy listening to this episode. We have links and resources in the description for those listeners who want to know more about how majority of domestic workers in Asia to lack legal rights and protections. In the upcoming episodes, we learn about what’s happening at the country level, including some of the examples that Rebecca touched on today. Until then, it’s goodbye from me. A Sonologue production.

Keywords: social justice, community building, activism, human rights, domestic workers, South Asia

Credits:

Guest: Rebecca Napier Moore – Technical Officer at the International Labour Organisation Host: Krithika Dinesh WIEGO Team: Podcast Production: Chhavi Sachdev and the team at Sonologue: Sharad Joshi on sound design.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Krithika Dinesh:
Hello, and welcome back to the third episode of our podcast, Domestic Workers Organizing for Change in Asia. Today, we’re joined by two guests from Hong Kong. An estimated 400,000 migrant domestic workers play a critical role in keeping the global cities running. Despite being covered by many of the same labor protections as local workers, they face a range of challenges in seeking redress for abusive working conditions. Firstly, I’d like to welcome Jec. Jec is the General Secretary of the Hong Kong Federation of Asian domestic workers unions (FADWU). She will talk about domestic workers protections and entitlements in Hong Kong. We’ll also discuss the particular challenges migrant domestic workers face in claiming the rights such as the so-called two week rule, which she tells us all about. Thank you so much, Jec for joining us today. And we are really looking forward to hearing and learning from you about domestic workers in Hong Kong. So, in the first instance, could you tell us more about FADWU and how it was formed? What is its strength?
Jec:
Okay. FADWA is a federation of Asian Domestic Workers Union, which consists of five nationalities. It includes Nepal, Thailand, Indonesia, Philippines, and of course, the local Hong Kong local domestic workers. This was formless in 2010. It is also the first Federation of domestic workers, which has been registered to the registry of trade unions in Hong Kong. Fado is educating migrant domestic workers to empower them regarding labor rights and welfare, especially women whose majority is domestic workers. So we are also providing paralegal with regards to their cases of domestic workers. So it is very important for us to educate them regarding labor rights, and their welfare. Likewise, we are also advocating and fighting a better labor situation of domestic workers in Hong Kong. So we are organizing locals and migrants.
Krithika Dinesh:
And you mentioned that FADWU is the first trade union of domestic workers it’s registered with. So what do you think is more advantageous to form a trade union as it helps to struggle in Hong Kong? Oh,
Jec:
Yes, we could say that trade union is, of course, a big advantage to all of us, because it is very easy for us to lovingly lobby the government, as they are recognizing our trade union. We had this kind of conversation, we had this kind of talk every year with the Labor Department with regards to our labor rights wages in our labor protection? So in this factor, since they are recognizing us, we also had the voice and we had the chance to talk with the government? Yeah. Okay.
Krithika Dinesh:
yeah, so forming a trade union is one right that domestic workers have there. But Could you tell us some more about what are the broad rights that domestic workers in Hong Kong are entitled to?
Jec:
If we talk generally for domestic workers, not only for migrant domestic workers, we have a lot of rights here. We have a lot of we are entitled for one rest day, we are entitled for maternity leave statutory holiday, annual leave, sick leave, and free medication. We are also benefited from long service and severance pay with all these entitlement domestic workers is not the same as law. So even we have this broad of the same entitlement as domestic workers, migrant domestic workers had an exclusion example, rest days, we are not entitled to have 24 hours though, it was written in the employment ordinance that we are entitled to one to 24 hours, the majority of migrant domestic workers had its own curfew, they have to work before they go out. And they have to work before they come back. So they are not enjoying the kind of 24 hours rest day, unlike with other domestic workers, which is what I’m referring to with those locals and likewise with those from mainland China. Secondly, we also had free medication for migrant domestic workers when we had the contract terminated, or we have already finished our contract. We are no longer entitled for this. Unlike with the local domestic workers. We have entitlement. For migrants, though we are, if considering others. Yes, we had a large number of migrant domestic workers here. But, of course, there’s always an exclusion of rights. Because we are migrants, of course, they are local. So we could say they had to prioritize the locals, rather than migrants.
Krithika Dinesh:
What about employers in Hong Kong? Is there an Employers Association in Hong Kong? And are they very active?
Jec:
There is an Employers Association in here, which is a big factor why is too hard also to for us to pursue our, our fights, because there’s always two sides in here, the side of employer and sides of domestic worker example wages. For the employers, they want the minimum wage to be lowered, despite 4800 they want it to be 4500. And there is this association of domestic workers who want to fight for a higher salary. So there is this kind of struggle with the Employers Association. Yeah, they are very active with regards to fighting also with their rights as an employer. So there are these broad rights. So how is the general level of implementation of these rights? There are these really strong rights on paper, but how are they being implemented?
Jec:
If we talk about implementation, of course, it was not properly implemented, though we had a lot of protection loss and welfare in the unemployment ordinance in the standard working standard contract. It was not properly implemented. That is why there are still a lot of domestic workers who are being harassed and abused despite being in a live-in condition. So it triggers all of these protection laws that have been provided, we could say that there’s still a big exclusion, if we talk about migrant domestic workers example, here is that access to justice, we had the two weeks rule, we had the problem of overcharging of employment agencies. We had this exclusion of the minimum and above all allowable wage and mandatory pension fund. So these are the parts of protection laws and welfare of domestic workers, which migrant domestic workers were excluded from. And maybe the big factor is that they are not recognizing domestic work as a word.
Krithika Dinesh:
And you also mentioned earlier, like there are paralegals that are there. So could you tell us a bit more about that? Are these domestic workers trained or and what do they do?
Jec:
Since it is our part of educating and empowering domestic workers, we are really going into a training example for the case team. We have had a training for the whole year to study the labor rights and welfare, protection, rights and welfare of in Hong Kong in order for us to help our core domestic workers in filing cases in helping them to go to the labor tribunal court in order for them to know what are they going if they are abused, if they are harassed? So secondly, we are also providing a lawyer with them in partnership with our NGO. Lawyers? Yeah.
Krithika Dinesh:
And what would you say are the major challenges that you’re encountering when you know you’re trying to implement these rights?
Jec:
Oh, the first challenge is really very hard. Because first in Hong Kong domestic workers were not recognized as work. So there’s this kind of challenge that we have. So since you are not recognized as a worker, that privilege is so little that you will still be discriminated against. It still feels like you are asleep in here. Despite this loss that has been existing. We also chat. It is a challenge. Also the long working hours. The rest days that we have the exclusion of the minimum allowable wage, were in domestic week. migrant domestic workers in the living condition are 24 hours on call, but we had the minimum we had the lowest wage among all the domestic workers in here, so, of course, this is the challenges that we are facing with that two week rule, the Access to Justice, this discrimination. We had the two weeks rule as well. So there’s a lot of challenges, especially if you have a case here. And you had only two weeks to stay. How can you struggle with your case? Yeah.
Krithika Dinesh:
Could you explain for our listeners, like what is the two weeks rule,
Jec:
okay, for two weeks rule is only imposed for migrant domestic workers, excluding locals. So when we say, two weeks roll, once you have terminated your contract, or you are terminated, you have only two weeks to stay in Hong Kong, to find a job. Whether you find a job or not, you have to go back to your place of origin to wait for your visa, or to find or to start looking for another employer going back here. So unlike with a Domestic Workers Local, of course, they can be found anytime. So we have a limited time here. And that makes it most difficult, especially if you’re having a dispute with your employer. Because if we could see what we needed to go back again, in our place of origin, where in fact, we are already here, so we find this, a discriminatory action example, which is why a lot of domestic workers are not pursuing their cases. If you have two weeks here, and you have to renew your visa to stay, you have to pay it again. And again and again, that makes migrant domestic workers difficult to pursue their cases. Because first, they don’t have a source of income. You cannot work while a case is going on. You have this limit of time. So we are already telling them to abolish this two week story because this is one factor also why employment agents are abusive, abusing those domestic workers who are looking for a job.
Krithika Dinesh:
There is no way that you can buy a few of them once you’re out of the country! Has FADWU tried to sort of overcome this two week rule even if the worker goes back to their home country?
Jec:
This is the reason why we kept on fighting. Or we kept on lobbying the government because way back in the pandemic time domestic workers who had lost his jobs didn’t need to go back to their place of origin. But – now it’s normal, why are you asking them to go back to their place of origin if you have already done it during a pandemic? So that is why we are struggling with the government to abolish that totally. We cannot do anything with domestic workers after they go back to their place of origin because that is already a rule. That is a policy that was being implemented by the immigration of Hong Kong.
Krithika Dinesh:
And before we let you go, I would ask about the law. Could you tell us what are some of the changes in the law you would like to see?
Jec:
In regards to the laws in Hong Kong, we find it so beautiful, but we want it to be strictly implemented. Because even how beautiful a law is, if you’re not properly implementing it, it’s nonsense. Second, in implementing they have also investigated and inspected those illegalities that were done by employer and employment agencies. Third, maybe of course, it is very significant for us that they had to recognize that domestic work is work. That is only the thing that we feel that we are, we are well protected, accepted in this society. Yeah.
Krithika Dinesh:
To help illustrate the realities of these legal limitations on workers’ lives, we have our next guest, Sarah, who is the vice president of the Union of Nepalese Domestic Workers in Hong Kong. They’re affiliated with FADWU, the Hong Kong Federation of Asian Domestic Workers Unions. The Union of Nepalese Domestic Workers in Hong Kong was established in 2015 and comprises migrant domestic workers. Sarah, who’s a domestic worker herself, will be sharing the story of a live in domestic worker in Hong Kong from Nepal, and how the Union supported her when her rights are grossly violated her employer
Sarah:
I had one case in 19 and one case last year 2022 she was abused by her employer. And then the story came up to me; her neighbors called me, the employer abused me a lot. And then the employer was very bad with the previous worker also. So somebody called me and then the story was on hold from October until January. After that, the girl, Alyssa Nirmala, was tortured by her boss a lot. And then the thing is, she was abused in everything. And she was still new in Hong Kong. So serious, she was very new. So she didn’t know anything about Hong Kong, and what was going on, and the rules and regulation and she didn’t have to go to the markets.She was not allowed to go by herself. So she has no idea. Because if we go to a new country, or new places, we all are facing those things. That’s like, culture shock, right? And besides that, she was a very, very young girl. So I went there, I got that call in October 2022. But the call was, again, the victim didn’t call me and then the next time on January 19, I got a call. So it was very serious. And I heard that the girl was running away from the house. And then I had the story that she want to go for suicide to kill herself. Because she has some loan in our hometown in the country, and then she got some loan to come to Hong Kong. So she came to Hong Kong, but it was not a good time for her. So she decided to suicide or kill herself. But she ran away from the house in the morning. And then she had no idea where she went; she had a phone though. then after that I got a secret address. She left her work because her employers abused her; they cut her hair; And frequently the lady boss was hitting her and then putting her down just like, “You don’t sit beside my children. You don’t come close to my children,” but still she had to cook and work and everything else. But that time, I think it was too much; she couldn’t take any more, so she had to run away, because She didn’t have anybody in Hong Kong. So she was just like, everything was very bad for her and then she made a decision to die. So it was a very painful story. And then her boss even got her here. And then she also used to throw some food on the top of her body like from head to toe, some toppings and vegetables. She also used to poke her with the hanger. These things happened to her. And it was very sad. And then suddenly, the first person who called me on October 28 2020 to see me again, called me in January and we found out we didn’t know where she was and we had no clue where she was gone. And certainly just like we were very blind when we didn’t know where she was. And then January 19, she was the whole day in the pack, the whole day in the park. And 20 I only had about her on 20 and 20 whole day and then suddenly in the night. And Harney was also going to find her. And then it was such a tough time because she was and her phone battery was almost going off. We don’t know what to do. We don’t know we have no word I don’t know. And then suddenly, and the lady who called me told her, “Don’t worry, just come back to the house,” because they were in the same building as her boss and then we’re in the same building. Suddenly Nirmala told me that she, suddenly had changed her mind not to not to suicide herself not to die, because she was thinking about her parents and her family. And she thought that some loan I have, that doesn’t mean I have to die. So I have to live and do something, just face the world, she decided,
Krithika Dinesh:
Once she got in touch with you what happened next
Sarah:
So the lady told her in case you decided to come home, I’ll take care of you. So after work, I just asked for permission from my employer, just to go and find her. And then my employer, there is family, they are good people. So they say okay, you can go so I just ran with this, like very nothing prepares us, like take my handbag and run to find her. But it was a good thing. And in the meantime, she came back home in the evening. So the thing was, then we have to bring her in. I got a call that the other lady was very, very, just frightened. And she asked me, let’s go to the police. Let’s go to the police and I say just calm down, and let’s hold and wait, maybe she will change our mind and come back home. Just like we have some belief in it. So that happened. And then I was on the bus, it was a very restless time. And then the lady called me back almost says here in our building, hiding and hiding behind the steer right now the stare is very dark, and then the lady bring her to her house and then see return and then help ours it’s like if our food, then give her bed and give her some changes, something like but everything happened. And in the morning, I brought her to the police station with one of my friends. And then we went to the police station. So when we are in the police station, the employer also after two days, they are in the police station, they do come to the police station. And the first day and the employer, both of them the men and the couple, both of them come to us aggressively, to fight with us. But the police departed, into a separate room. Them she was very worried. And then on the same day on Sunday, we brought her to our shelter. And so we moved her to the shelter so she could sleep there. We had many, many hearings in the court. There’s two or three of them who helped us because I’m just like I work in the house. So even though my employer is very good, I cannot keep going out. So I have to give them respect. So and then was the one to follow up. And then finally, we got to end the case because the girl could not talk too much. She was just frightened. And the employer heaped more abuse, this aggressively even in the court, and she had no idea, because two of them cannot communicate in a language. She doesn’t know English, the employer doesn’t speak Nepali or Hindi. So both of them just couldn’t press too much. So she finally decided to settle with a small amount, but we are not satisfied with that one. So this other story right now and then we are having her again in a criminal case. The employer was already sued for the criminal case. Right now, she has gone home.
Krithika Dinesh:
So the two types of cases that were going on were a civil case and a criminal case.
Sarah:
The first one is already done.
Krithika Dinesh:
So could you tell us a bit more about that case? What were the demands of the Nirmala and what she got
Sarah:
Nirmala demanded her holidays or unpaid salary. And then and then she wanted all the statutory holidays that are the things we are getting an ongoing like Saturday holidays, and then the salary was unpaid. And then her weekly holiday weekend was no holidays. So these things happened.
Krithika Dinesh:
When these cases are ongoing, is it possible for the case to continue with the migrant domestic workers back home or they have to be in Hong Kong?
Sarah:
No, they can still continue back home until somebody is here for them. We’ll stand or witness like fadarz handling now. And also some migrant workers, if they have not claimed any of their rights, money or things, so they can even go to their country and claim back from there. So someone can handle it from here, within one year, I know within one year we can claim our country. We don’t have to be here
Krithika Dinesh:
That’s great. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing the story with us.
Sarah:
No problem. You’re welcome.
Krithika Dinesh:
Thank you so much. Thank you, Jec, and Sarah for giving us your valuable time. And thank you, all of us for joining us today. Today, we had a chance to hear about another layer of vulnerability that migrant domestic workers face. In laws, they often have weaker and different provisions as compared to other domestic workers, like the two week rule, by which they have to go back to their home country when they lose or quit their jobs. And in practice, as you’ve heard, it’s extremely challenging to seek redress. There are very limited options for migrant workers if they want to leave their jobs. Unions play a critical role in supporting them to navigate complex realities of the legal system. I leave you with that thought for today. Please check the links in the description to learn more about FADWU and their work. In our next episode, we’ll spend some time with Gyanu and hear about her experiences in implementation of laws for domestic workers and Nepal. Until then, it’s goodbye from me. A Sonologue production.

Keywords: social justice, community building, activism, human rights, domestic workers, South Asia

Credits:

Guest(s): Jec and Sarah Host: Krithika Dinesh WIEGO Team: Podcast Production: Chhavi Sachdev and the team at Sonologue: Sharad Joshi on sound design.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Krithika Dinesh:
Hello, and welcome back to our podcast, domestic workers organizing for legal change in Asia. Today, in our fourth episode, we are in Nepal. In 2017, domestic workers were included in two major pieces of legislation, the Labor Act and the Social Security Act. But implementation has been very slow, convincing principalities to invest resources in the programs needed to register domestic workers, and expand social security coverage to them is an ongoing struggle. Today, we have with us Gyanu Kshatri, who’s the general secretary of the home based Workers Union in Nepal. The union is also part of GEFONT, which is the General Federation of Nepalese Trade Unions. Gyanu talks about the challenges they’re facing every day, but organizing to implement the law and share a winning argument that domestic work is essential work. Thank you, Gyanu for agreeing to be recorded for the podcast. So to start off with, could you tell us a bit more about your union, how it started, how were you involved?
Gyanu Kshatri:
Before becoming involved in the union, I was working for the national federation called GEFONT which is the general Federation of Nepalese trade unions. And I was working as an office secretary and I looked at the admin work. But as well as I was working with the homeless workers and volunteers, workers, beautician workers and domestic workers, unions, people also so my leaders requested and act to give me time for a week to make the decision. Either I will go as a bureaucrat, or I have to go to the union leader. So he gave me my expression and gave me the date to make the decision for a week. Meantime, it is very difficult for me to decide because, you know, for me, it’s very difficult in the financial sector. Also, if I left the bureaucrat office, then I may not get the Salary and Allowances. So how do I conduct my family and my finances? So I was in a very difficult situation, how can I make a decision but I have keen interest in working with the Workers Union also. So at last but not least, I think the decision is a strong decision of my life. And I tried to get involved in the Union, and they offered me to be the treasurer, finance secretary in the union, or in the meantime, the union was also more like home based workers, domestic workers in our same union, so to raise the big voice. So we merged in 2013. So from that day, I started working formally in the union. Beside that, when I was in office secretary of the GEFONT I was working as a volunteer and make the members of the union and I conducted the meeting and management all things, but later on all accountability and responsibilities given to me because my president thought that I have only just the powers, I can lead in the unit. So I didn’t know I had that much power, but now I realized how they are receiving the vision of me. And I also, by working and working, I realized that I can lead and deal with the union’s people and deal with it. True that my union leader trusts me and gives me this responsibility.
Krithika Dinesh:
So you were saying that the union was formed in 2013. So could you tell more for our listeners, like, what is the union like, what kind of workers are there?
Gyanu Kshatri:
Yeah, we have two categories of workers. One is the Home Base workers and in other ways the domestic worker inside the domestic worker there are many percentage of the workers are leave out domestic worker few are is the leaving domestic worker because leaving domestic worker to organize leaving domestic worker is a very, very challenges and very, very, very big. Yeah, it is difficult.
Krithika Dinesh:
Okay. And so, I know that there was a new law that came in 2017 for domestic workers. So, could you tell us more about that?
Gyanu Kshatri:
Since 2002, we are demanding and lobbying and advocating regarding the social protection of the domestic workers. Maybe we are the first union and first national federation, GEFONT, who raise the voice of nurses, secretary protection as well as labor laws. So, we are demanding that labor and domestic workers should be endorsed with a different policy and sub law. But fortunately, they are able to endorse and enroll our domestic workers into the Labor Act in 2000, meaning just before six years, and then later now, Social Security Act also near that labor actor is developed but it is not implemented, it implemented after two years, but that is only for the formal workers not for the informal workers not for the domestic workers. But recently we are again advocating and demanding social security. GEFONT developed the procedures for the informal workers and which was launchedn by our recent President, but it is not implemented by all municipalities and not implemented by all local governments. still not somehow only two or three municipalities are implementing and announcing that social security protection and registrations should be started; they announced this one but it’s still the work is going very slowly.
Krithika Dinesh:
So, through this law they brought in, the domestic worker should be registered and they should be given Social Security. What about minimum wages?
Gyanu Kshatri:
For Social Security they endorsed domestic worker also included in the informal workers in the law they mention only informal workers, because domestic workers already include the informal workers, they did not directly say that domestic workers but in labor law for the minimum wages case and for Labor Act, they separate right the domestic worker in the act number 838, 806, law 86 only So far that minimum wages for the living worker – they said that this should be the different one, because they should deduct for morning and evening food, and if they sent the worker to the school, school fee also they have deducted and then risk they will give but for the part time and leave out workers – I think they will get more than minimum wage just because now minimum wages is 2,000. I think per hour they get 77 rupees and if they finish washing the clothes they will get 1000 Nepali rupees, so it is the based two ways is when the minimum wages
Krithika Dinesh:
When you were bringing in this law, what are the challenges you had faced when advocating with the government?
Gyanu Kshatri:
Yeah, first, I have to tell you honestly that when we go into the government, local government, they are really uninformed about the domestic worker. The first time they asked me do you think domestic workers are workers? So, I told if domestic worker is not counted as addition for work and how can you go to the work in the outside? How can your family survive if domestic worker doesn’t come to your home? I asked them like this way. Before they did not realize domestic work as a worker, but recently, slowly, slowly government to local representatives and central government and ministry, the labor ministry they also realize now domestic workers are. And nowadays in our country, most of the workers are migrating for financial settlements. So, there are the old hither and smallers. So,Old Age Care Centers are also very, very required. So nowadays care workers are very, very necessary. And after 3 months, they give some caregiverorientation class and give some certificates, and then our domestic worker can get the jobt. So now before, it’s very difficult, even the domestic worker also don’t want to recognize their work. If they work as a domestic worker, they always lie, that they went to a friend’s home, they went to another market, but in the real sense, they are working in the house, but they did not want to tell them that they are a domestic worker. So this is very, very challenging for one, they did not get the wages, and if they are harassed, then they will search and come to the union. Otherwise, they did not want to join the union. And they always want to hide their position and post off the job. So now nowadays, it’s another thing is that if the domestic worker want to know that I am a domestic worker, and I work here but their husband, their family don’t want to highlight that woman is the domestic worker, this is also very great challenges for us to unionize the worker in a scattered way scattered place. Same from the government side and also from the employer side. It is very challenging because they did not realize that it is the work, domestic worker’s work. So this is the big challenge itself.
Krithika Dinesh:
How did you convince the government when they said we don’t think domestic workers are workers?
Gyanu Kshatri:
I have a good example that one of the Secretary of the Labor ministry. They called us when there was the discussion of the ratification of ILO Convention 189, He asked me, Sister and you told that domestic workers would require this much minimum wages, this much facility, social protection, and we have only this much money. If we give all our money to the domestic worker, how can we survive in our household? How can we give our baby the school’s fee and everything like this? And I said, no, brother, you are wrong, we did not demand all your salary to provide for the domestic workers. just one salary will be taken by the domestic worker. And I ask you, Brother, if your domestic work does not come to your house –, your mother, father or mother or your baby, do you think you and your wife will go outside to earn the money to get the income? You can come here to work and to earn all the money because of the domestic worker, not because of you … because the domestic worker is working in your house and caring looking. So, that’s why you are here with the free mind work and you get the salaries, but you know, domestic workers somewhere still are scattered, they really still do not want to say that they are a domestic worker, that is the main challenge.
Krithika Dinesh:
So, how do you sort of organize domestic workers in your union?
Gyanu Kshatri:
Yeah my experience and my other our unions, colleagues experiences is that we organized the members first friend to friend, that domestic worker bring the another domestic worker one way and in their ways we find the domestic worker in the market in a time of the buying the basic table style breakfast meal break, they came to the store to buy that one at that time, because of the dress up because of the domestic worker is quite different and we already recognize the domestic worker being a leader. And another thing is we went to the government school. It is cool because domestic workers always go to the government school and we can connect with the principal of this government school. And another one is the now we have to we have our General Federation of Nepalese State Union Fund have seven province and they have offices in the seven province and from that office also they also help us leader union other leader also help us to organize the new area and place but after taking the training of ILO, we are now doing the another exercise like PRA you know Participatory Rural Appraisal method, we did matrix and that is tool different tools like matrix and problem tree and social mapping like this way and for before mapping we take the help of the local government representative, because our different Federation have many members who are elected in the local government nowadays and through them, we went that area and municipality first and man is for the simple meeting with men, men workers and then men worker, they will bring the another worker. So, we are doing the mapping, social mapping matrix, pro problem tree and we say that this is the your problem this is your problem in the root and in the stream tell me what is the reason of your problem in the upper when there is the fruit side that upside to it will say that there is the solution. That’s why your solution is to unionize. So, you have to come to the Union like this, we will convince them and then they will come to the union and you realize if we gather 100 people, only 50 members will be organized. These are the two things.
Krithika Dinesh:
How many domestic worker members do you have now?
Gyanu Kshatri:
More than 10,000. But this time we have a new one. It is in our planning I find that the more room this worker is growing up nowadays. You know why? Because when they are retired from the job, most of the women and men are working in the garments they bring to the garment and they bring to the home and they are stitching and weaving and they are painting and so on they are working.
Krithika Dinesh:
So coming back to the domestic workers. So you said like now there are minimum wages and Social Security for domestic workers. So how does Social Security work, what is included and how have you been trying to implement it?
Gyanu Kshatri:
Yeah, first still our domestic worker did not get the Social Security fund and they did not register it. First we are advocating and lobbying to the government, local government because all authorization is given to the local government nowadays. So, local government we are doing the interaction orientation meeting etc we did still we are lobbying and advocacy to some new municipality specifically we work for 3, 4 municipality among that municipality only one municipality started the registration the domestic worker first, they did not say that domestic worker only they announced for the informal workers registration, so, it is easier they give their identity card and each year they have to renew that card. And then for Social Security, they promised us that within a year they are first doing the pilot survey and after that, how can they provide Social Security to them? So, but they promise and commit to us they are starting from that.
Krithika Dinesh:
Yeah, so that was my next question. You said the government doesn’t have a Social Security fund. So, how is it working? Like, does the worker have to contribute the employer contributes or is just the government giving?
Gyanu Kshatri:
Those domestic workers have the procedure already announced – that if the self-employer or home workers and domestic workers want to contribute – 20% to 21% from their side – and on the other side, governments will contribute if there is no employer. Okay, so our union is angry, but the union is still lobbying that that money should be given by the employer or if the employer does not agree, then governments should be giving that contribution. So that means I will transfer you, but the government announced the procedures of the social protection contribution fund that they can involve their employer or they can demand for their local government. It is an option.
Krithika Dinesh:
Thank you so much Gyanu for sparing your time and sharing your experience in organizing and advocating for domestic workers rights. It was really wonderful to listen to you and learn about the work from organizing like you going door to door and worker to worker to actually mobilize domestic workers. You also highlighted something extremely important: the stigma associated with domestic work. Even though enabled domestic workers now have legal protections, domestic work is still looked down upon by employers and sometimes workers themselves. We have a long way to go to change the way domestic work is looked at, and to make sure that domestic workers are recognized as valued and dignified work just like any other work. Thank you all for listening. As always, we have links and resources for those listeners who want to know more about Home Based Workers Union in the past and the labor law. In our next episode, we will talk with Himaya from the Philippines to hear about her experiences organizing, advocating for implementation of the law. Until then it’s goodbye from me. A Sonologue production.

Keywords: social justice, community building, activism, human rights, domestic workers, South Asia

Credits:

Guest(s): Gyanu Kshatri – General secretary of the Home Based Workers Union in Nepal Host: Krithika Dinesh WIEGO Team: Podcast Production: Chhavi Sachdev and the team at Sonologue: Sharad Joshi on sound design.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Krithika Dinesh:
Hello, and welcome back for the fifth episode of our podcast, domestic workers organizing for legal change in Asia. In this episode, we’re in the Philippines, a country that employs an estimated 2.5 million domestic workers globally and has deployed hundreds of 1000s of Philippinos as domestic workers overseas. In September 2012, the government ratified the domestic workers convention, C 189, and in January 2013, passed a comprehensive domestic workers act. It’s the only country in Asia to do so. Both are landmark victories for ensuring the rights of domestic workers in the Philippines are safeguarded. But what does it take to translate legal victories into real change in workers’ lives? Today, we have with us Himaya, from the United Domestic Workers Union in the Philippines. Himaya is the General Secretary of the Union. She talks to us about the key features of the law, including the role that it gives the local government known as barangay. In implementing it, she also unpacks the strategies the union has adopted to support workers navigate practical challenges in securing the entitlements from employers and officials. And she does all of this while her son is competing for attention in the backdrop. Thank you so much Himaya for agreeing to be recorded for this podcast. To start off with, could you tell us a bit more about United when it started, how it started.
Himaya:
So it is out of curiosity because at that time, I reliever at the Dickerson one of the daycare center is sponsored by the Labor NGO, the labor Educational Research Network, who has helping the community daycare center in one of the community in case and city then, at the same time I am domestic worker, one employer in household employer in Quezon City, so, my job, I have to jump in. So then because I am a domestic worker. So I know that there is convention 189. The in here to engage for the adoption of the convention 189 then before that, because I am very curious, because you know, I am a domestic worker then and I did not, I’m enjoying my right as a domestic worker. So I read some piles of the policies that the engage that the submitted into the Senate and in the Lower House and Congress. So that’s how we start because I gossip it, what I read is a gossip. It’s so my co-domestic worker in the area. And then in the neighborhood in Quezon City where the neighbor of my employer also has a domestic worker. So that’s what how we start to gather ourselves to become Union now, big union, because it is nationwide actually. And now united is the underscope is a national level, but the organizing is in the villages, we call it barangay. So, the barangay in the Philippines is the smallest unit in the government.
Krithika Dinesh:
For you it started the organization and then at what point did it become a huge trade union.
Himaya:
Because of that, we my co-domestic workers, we just how many of us I think we started in a small group, then eventually in 2011, we are 73 in a group but our name is not united. So it does transform along the way, when we know that there is an consultation, even we are not invited at that time because nobody knows us. But I just got into my friend who is a domestic worker, oh, we attend to the consultation in the congregation because we are domestic worker. So, we must know what they are lobbying to for us. Actually is, not only the right but we focus on the economic aspect, because the problem of that time is example for me. My salary is too small and the salary is so small, and then I don’t have these weekly off. And I have a lot of workload, because I, there, are three houses that I have to clean up every day. But the one is, we will just go there because it is quite far in the city. So we just go there twice a week. So that’s what, I did then as a domestic worker, but I don’t have the social benefits, though I NIGO sheet with my employer that I should have social benefits, which is the social security system. But she just said yes, then when I talk to my co domestic worker, they say that their problem is the same from my problem. And also the food that they eat is not good. And in the summary, we don’t have these savings, because we have a very small salary.
Krithika Dinesh:
I know there’s a law in the Philippines, which came maybe in 2013. So could you tell us how that came about? And what were the key changes that the law got in?
Himaya:
Yeah, we are very thankful because there are many trade union who is push and supported us and then a civil society, the labor NGO, who was there to fight for our rights, even that there is a law now, it is not quite significant for us, but because there is like gradual changes, but we are very thankful, because of that law, the physical abuse, the verbal abuse, and many abuses that we encountered before is that was listen and very still down. Like what is happening now that there is one domestic worker was abused and become blinded by her employer. But in we can see that in one decade, only one piece, who is very severe, or 123 cases who was very severe, but not like in our experience before like me that. And there was rape, there was act of lasciviousness, and everything economic, physical and emotional, verbal abuse and psychological abuse, we encountered that. But today, we can say that the law helped a lot to change our situation. And even that the main employer did not give our benefits that are mandated in the law, even the main employer, that who are aware of their rights, even they are reluctant to obey the law. But the abuses is not very rampant. And the data shows that there are domestic worker who is enjoying of their social benefits. But the problem is that because of this misconception of the law, the employer did not abide us to enroll their domestic worker as their employee. Yeah, not many of them not following the law that way that the data shows very small, but there are employer who gives directly the benefits to the domestic worker but not enroll in the system. Yeah. Meaning that it did not show in the system because they did not enroll the employee example, me, I am the domestic worker, but my employer did not enroll me into the social benefits meaning that they did not fill up the form. They did not declare that I am their domestic worker, but they gave me money to give my monthly contribution in that social benefits.
Krithika Dinesh:
Okay, okay. That’s clear. Could you like take us a bit back first and tell us what all changes came through the law? To the cousin by? If I’m correct, that law that came in 2013?
Himaya:
Yeah, it makes a lot of changes. Because we have voice actually, we can, even though we don’t have invitation, we can lobby, we can go to the different agency got particularly Aha, have the authority to implement the domestic workers act. So it gives us voice as a domestic worker. And then there are many venues that we can tell our stories, we can negotiate with the employer, we can negotiate with the government agency, we can also collaborate them how to implement it properly.
Krithika Dinesh:
Okay. So how do you usually organize the domestic workers?
Himaya:
Yeah, we usually organize the domestic worker, like I start before I just stand by in the school or in that church, and then we have this contact building. So we will contact or example this house has domestic worker, so we build a relationship for that domestic worker so that the domestic worker in that area, she can, or he can invite for the meeting, our meeting is we talk about our personal experience, and what is the content of the Convention 189, and then that the content of the domestic workers law in the Philippines. So that’s what we organize. And then we also consult what they need as a domestic worker, so that we can also engage in the barangay level, for example, they want extra income So we engage in the barangay, we asked, or we inquire in the barangay they have this livelihood program, livelihood training, skills training for the domestic workers, so something like that, we include in our organizing strategy. And sometimes we talk to the employers because it gives us big impact, if we can help the problem of the employer with the domestic worker. So we build alliances, not only for the domestic worker, but also for the employers.
Krithika Dinesh:
Also an Employers Association in the Philippines, for domestic workers.
Himaya:
Actually, we don’t have this purely organization of employers for domestic worker, it is mixed, it is called that employers confederation of the Philippines, but it is not necessary that our association of the domestic workers employer, but that is our big challenge to have the domestic workers employer association. So we weren’t the collective bargaining that we wanted to is that the participation of the homeowners association of that particular city, so that we can talk about the benefits of that domestic worker and how the employer how we can help the employer to so that they can abide the law. So they can give the necessary or the mandated obligation for their domestic worker.
Krithika Dinesh:
Is a lot of power given to the local governments. Yeah,
Himaya:
Actually, the domestic workers law give the implementation power to the barangay level. So, the registration is in the barangay. And then the enrollment of the domestic workers is in the barangay level. So the databasing is conducted in the barangay. So for the implementation of the registration of the domestic workers, is very important because you can see how many domestic worker in the particular barangay how many employers that need assistance from the barangay to enroll their domestic workers, because most of the employer says that they do not have time to enroll their domestic workers. That’s why they are not able to enroll the domestic worker in the social benefits institution.
Krithika Dinesh:
And since 2013, like have you seen that in some barangays the law has been implemented, you know, well, or more than in the other barangays.
Himaya:
Yes, but are particularly in Quezon, city and Muntinlupa. Example, in Muntinlupa, in 2016, there one barangay, called barangay putatan, and pass the ordinance or resolution barangay resolution for the custom for domestic worker, so to enhance the registration of the domestic worker and rated at the obligation of the employer, for the registration of the domestic worker in their barangay. So that if there’s a problem in the future, the barangay can help the employer, with the matter of their domestic worker.
Krithika Dinesh:
And you were mentioning like that, through this law, now domestic work, the trade union can represent the workers to bring cases to the Labor Department. So do you see a lot of these cases? Or do they just comes once in a while?
Himaya:
Before there are a lot actually, I also experienced that I represent them in the Labor Department. And before it is very mild, in a sense that we just accompany them filing complaints, for their contribution for the social benefits. And other than that the complaint about their day off, because most of them employer did not give of their domestic workers that one day off in a week.
Krithika Dinesh:
Okay. And so why do you think the complaints are less now is it because like, now, it’s been 10 years that the law has come, there’s been some shifts in attitude of the employers or the government.
Himaya:
Maybe because the employer and the domestic workers knows how to deal to each other. So both of them, I think just taught the mother on their own, the problem that they are dealing, so that’s, that’s what we can see.
Krithika Dinesh:
And we also provide training to the workers who are more active like on the law.
Himaya:
Yes, we have this paralegal training, negotiation training, because very important for them to know that, how to handle the paralegal and not because that’s all we know, we know all right now, like that. So, they must handle it properly, how they talk to their employer, how they talk to the local government unit or or even in the regional level, because we have this regional level representation. So, we have this training, and then leadership training, because many of us even though we finish our studies, then we opted, we choose as a domestic worker, because it is very easy job to have no requirements like that and everything is free. And then if you if you are really lucky, you can find very higher salary, it’s rents are 15,000 to 20,000. So, it is up to you how to uplift yourself how to acquired skills, but in the Union, we have this leadership training so that they can have these interpersonal skills, how to deal with a different attitude or behavior or manner of domestic work and also for the employer. So if the employer is very aggressive if the employer is not domestic worker friendly so they know how to deal with that kind of the employer. And then we have this gender orientation, so we just reiterate to them that even though we are Women, our union is more women, our member is dominant, of women members. But we should not forget that all of us are equal in the families, we just say to them in the training that we did that, they must know that all of us is equal regardless of our gender regardless of our identity, but we must teach the member of the family that our work is a valued work, it is not just our obligation in the family, so everybody must know how to do the household chores?
Krithika Dinesh:
What are the main features of the 2013 law? Like you can just tell me like 3, 4 points, like the main big rights that you got through the law?
Himaya:
Yeah. So the main features that we really wanted in the law is that there’s a section in the last I forgot what section is that, but to form or to join, or to assist the labor organization. So that is, this is very big impact for us. Because meaning that state really recognized us. And then the state recognized us as we are worker, like any other worker, and then we have this contract. So we, like other worker that they have also contract and the we can enjoy. I know that majority of us not doing it yet, but at least in the paper, they put it there that we have this, we have this contract, then the contract has the least of our rights and obligation of the employer. So our rights one is to join and form the union. And then our right to have these economic benefits, right to bargain, because there’s a section there that we have the collective bargaining we can have the collective bargaining, but I know that it’s lack of mechanism. But I know that we can also deal with that because the regional, and the national level heeded by the labor department is very accommodating, and it’s very cooperative for us, and they always consult us what we need. But of course, there’s always a hindrance, because the challenge, everything of that good features in our law, but the challenge is in the part of the employer, even the government agencies, the different government agency would like to really implement the law, but if there is no cooperation with the household employer, so the law it is not really possible, but we can see the green light that we can achieve this and we can enjoy this law in the future. Yeah.
Krithika Dinesh:
Okay. Okay. Thank you so much like, I wanted you to repeat it, because Philippines is one of the only country in Asia which is ratified the 189 and has such a strong law for domestic workers.
Himaya:
Yeah. I just mentioned those things, because I think that is really important, because the contract is really important, because this is the one document between the domestic worker and employer and this is also can be used as legal document between them and I am not bias, because there are many employer that is good also, as same as the domestic worker. There are domestic worker that not really that good, but because of this contract, it can help a lot to have this legal document between them and also What I really mentioned for the join and to form the union because it is very important because even though we are recognized that we can join, we can form a union. But there are also hindrances. But because of that, when we explain to that the employer and the other government agency, they say you have this, right. So, you know, our feeling is that it’s like a victory for us, even though there are many challenges in the implementation of the law. But in the small things, we think that, we gain this victory because of this small section of the law.
Krithika Dinesh:
Thank you for sharing your time and words with us, it’s heartening to hear how over time through legal change that there are some changes that you’ve seen behaviours. You shared some valuable lessons on how a shift has come in the government, through the recognition of the Union as a legitimate entity per employee, meant contracts are essential for individual domestic workers to assert their rights in how domestic workers are empowered to negotiate for their own and their comrades. Right. Thank you all for listening, and staying with us till now. Next week, we have our last episode in the series about domestic workers in Indonesia fighting to bring in a new law. Until then, it’s goodbye from me. A Sonologue production.

Keywords: social justice, community building, activism, human rights, domestic workers, South Asia

Credits:

Guest(s): Himaya – General secretary of the United Domestic Workers Union in the Philippines, Host: Krithika Dinesh WIEGO Team: Podcast Production: Chhavi Sachdev and the team at Sonologue: Sharad Joshi on sound design.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Krithika Dinesh:
Hello, and welcome back to the last episode of our podcast, domestic workers organizing for legal change in Asia. In the sixth and final episode, we are in Indonesia. Southeast Asia’s largest economy has long relied on more than 4 million workers for household work of richness demeter, three out of four are women. But Indonesia’s key labor law falls short of explicitly recognizing domestic workers in their labor law. Domestic Workers in Indonesia have spent more than two decades fighting for legislation to protect their rights. The key challenge they face is how to build political will among parliamentarians who are themselves employers of domestic workers and benefit from the status quo. Today, we have with us Lita Anggraini from the National Network for Domestic Workers Advocacy, known as JALA PRT. She’s the co-founder and national coordinator of JALA PRT and carries with her over 30 years of experience with the domestic workers movement. JALA PRT is a national network of unions, NGOs, legal aid institutes and allied social justice groups working to advance domestic workers rights across Indonesia. Lita shared some of the research, mobilization and advocacy strategies they’ve used over the years. When I spoke with her in January 2024, it already crossed 100 days of a rotational hunger strike demanding that the long awaited bill moves forward in Parliament. So, to start us off, like could you just tell us a bit more about JALA PRT when it was formed, and about its members?
Lita Anggraini:
Yeah. JALA PRT has more than the team members, they are the members in the Domestic Workers Union of course. And then a women’s organization called the CSO Civil Society Organization. Yeah, it’s socio organization. And then Like Institute, and then also some red unions. Yeah. And also some CSO and the constant on Social Security, social justice, etc. Yeah.
Krithika Dinesh:
So, could you tell us a bit more about the union? When it was formed and how it was formed? Was it difficult when you had to get it registered?
Lita Anggraini:
A domestic worker is a characteristic worker because they work solo per house, so it’s different with the general workers that they have unions and also, their recruitment is different because they usually go from one company to one manufacturer to recruit; but to recruit and to organize domestic workers is very very different. We must recruit domestic workers door to door one by one. We use that method, to say in the press likes to say come and join us as unions to make a change of our situation. And we, every city as it is different because it is also influenced by culture, lives in Jakarta differently with the other cities like in Central Java, where there are also Union of domestic workers also established. It has more than 13,000 member registered and more than 700 leaders from District until nightfall group 10 Yeah, that we did because we method up new leadership Domestic Workers Union from the center industry, and then in community base and then community bases mean like some district and then sub-sub district interface and then also grouping every 10 people and then the grouping again, because it’s very important to raise the domestic worker in house per house. So we make groups of 10 people to make coordination to build communication and how to make intensive relations among members and in coordination in domestic worker unions like that.
Krithika Dinesh:
Okay. Thank you. So, you mentioned you use these different organizing strategies. So did you mean that they were broken into small groups according to their neighborhoods, lik, 10. And then they organized other domestic workers in the region?
Lita Anggraini:
Yeah, we recruit the members in different methods, first, we end the five in the map, the domestic worker we can meet, we can find, like seeing kindergarten, in the supermarket, or traditional market, in the station in the pastrimin and in the pitcher tables seller. Yeah. And also in the garden, public garden, we have the two methods of recruitment: First is online. We post our activities on social media, and we give contact numbers and also apply for recruitment. That’s directly face to face. I have to sell door to door and go to the market and go to kindergarten like that. But the more effective use is offline, because it’s hard to introduce ourselves, and also how to build communication directly to explain, and then how to invite to join our organization, and how to build trust, among our target domestic workers that we have to recruit to be a member like that.
Krithika Dinesh:
Okay, that’s really interesting. And so I had heard from Fish, the IDWF coordinator in Asia, that you’re presently working on bringing a new law for domestic workers. So could you tell us a bit more about that process, how it began, why it began? And what’s going on right now.
Lita Anggraini:
Yeah, we submit, we have dropped the domestic worker law since 1999. And, Misunder Robert research. And then after this, we tried to examine the draft with the Contra method between the domestic worker and the employer, and that employer has willingness to be partner in the examination of the draft of domestic worker and then after this, we submit the draft of domestic workers in 2004 and to, the parliament and the House of Representatives. And then after five years the drop of the domestic worker law became the legislation priority and that upset the 9 commissions that the commission handled in working the issue and also the power issue. And then they also make the wrap and 2010, the Parliament start to research, domestic worker intensive densities, and then they finish the draft and in 2012 they make a comparative study to South Africa and Argentina, and then 2013 they make public dialogue in three cities in Indonesia, and they finished the draft of the domestic worker, law 2013. And then they submitted, they just left the body because the legislative body is the body of the parliament, that authority to decide will continue to be deliberate or not. But in 2014, the legislative body stopped the law. Yeah. It’s very long advocacy and struggle, because we face like this latter, the member of the Parliament, because you know, in Indonesia majority of the employers is from upper class and the low class and also in our parliament, and almost 100%, the employer, that higher domestic worker, so they’re contacting the RAs in Member of Parliament that they worry if the law will be passed, is will be influenced that the status quo the prepopulates that they get as employer during this time they as a employer they get replace the domestic worker because they can order the gift tax everything to the domestic worker without regulation. Yeah. Like domestic workers, Indonesia has long offered our unlimited burden of social security. Health is already announced employment security, no. One day off, no. Severance, no. No annual leave. Yeah. There is no rice for domestic workers in Malaysia. So this is the latest letter to worry about the domestic worker law.
Krithika Dinesh:
So you’ve been seeing it since 2014. It’s gone to the legislative body, but it still has not come through the law?
Lita Anggraini:
Yes, And then we tried again 2019 always with advocacy, but it was in the waiting lists of the priority. And then 2019 and then 2020 with the five step person of the legislative body as willingness, political witness to continue to deliberate the domestic worker, the draft of domestic worker law. And then like this legislative body, take the domestic worker, the draft, and finish the draft of domestic worker law. And then we do advocacy campaign, and we mobilize support on CSOs social movement like labor movement like that and also Of course, mass media play minor role to make, to rise, this issue to blow up this issue and the 2020 the legislative body finished the draft and then submit to the plenary after three years legislative body finish to 2023. The President gave a statement that the President has a commitment to deliberate and pass the draft of the law as soon as possible, because it’s very important for domestic workers to make a big contribution to the state, and we must recognize them as workers and as their role and also fulfill their rights. And then the chairperson of Parliament kept responding that on the 21st of March the plenary of the parliament decided the domestic worker law became an initiative. So I still need one step again, to pass the law. But now we are close to the general election.
Krithika Dinesh:
And so, what are some of the strategies that you used while advocating for this law? I heard that JALA PRT had gone on hunger strike for many weeks.
Lita Anggraini:
Yeah. Today’s the 100th, more than 115 we conduct hunger strike. We make a marathon like it’s tough when there are two or three people on hunger strike. But we go into parliament every day to show the parliament, to finish the domestic worker lobbying for people to election, and our people at the end of the three we demand as soon as possible. And we also addressed the chairperson of the parliament, the largest political party, where they have a slogan, for poor people.
Krithika Dinesh:
Okay. And what are some of the major challenges that you’ve encountered so far?
Lita Anggraini:
First, the Member of Parliament is also an employer. They have an interest in the situation as an employer that they didn’t want to change the privilege of the situation … In our meetings with the legislators, they always discuss their domestic worker that works in their house, or they go on days that domestic workers say no, they don’t want the domestic worker to say, I need one day off, because they don’t want the domestic worker asking the minimum wage like that. So they try to make the status quo. Yeah. And the second challenge, also in the political situation, is the devaluation of the competition among political parties in running up the president of Canada, and also among the legislature, yeah. To run to be put that again as like this letter again. Yeah. And also just this minority issue in the parliament, because just a member of Parliament that supports us to promote the domestic worker law.
Krithika Dinesh:
Yeah, this is a common challenge that we see everywhere, the people in charge of making the law are also employers and they themselves don’t want to change. So what would you say are your two-three main hopes from this new legislation? What are the main things that you want to see?
Lita Anggraini:
The first is the content of the draft, this referred to in the ILO Convention 189, about decent work, and also social justice, social protection, and also inclusion. And the second also on the draft will be to continue to deliberate as soon as possible and pass this year in Riyadh as soon as possible. Not a wide election. Not be too wide until the second round of generalization like that. Yeah. The legislators have responsibility to finish the law to pass the law. Yeah. Because this is also 20 years in the parliament, just the only loan that is a very long process in the parliament.
Krithika Dinesh:
Yeah. Yeah. So I think yeah, your first hope is that it just gets passed this year. Yeah. And so without the laws now, what protections do domestic workers in Indonesia have, like, do they have any protection any law that they can rely on?
Lita Anggraini:
We have ministry regulation on the domestic worker law. But you know, that the ministry regulation is unbinded law, so cannot worse about the implementation and soon the ministry regulation in the domestic worker more right about the revelation about relationship on domestic worker with urgency, the recruiter urgency, and also it’s not about the rise of the domestic worker and the protection of domestic worker. yeah, like them.
Krithika Dinesh:
So the ministry regulation is more to do with recruitment agency and how that works
Lita Anggraini:
They regulate the agency in the midst of domestic worker rights protection like that. Yeah.
Krithika Dinesh:
Thank you so much. Before we let you go, like, could you share with us your story like how you started working in the domestic workers movement?
Lita Anggraini:
Yeah, I joined the domestic worker movement when I was a student in 1991. When I was student we, together with the women’s student, we established women’s student forum, and then we advocate about violence against women’s and also work on women’s Yeah, in and then also human rights and then in 1991 we get a news that one of the domestic worker in estaba and then we decide that we constant and focus on the domestic worker law, domestic worker issue and we must organize the domestic worker we must advocacy domestic worker to help law and also how to beat the conflict interest among citizen to domestic worker to become the common interest, because when we I was student is that focus is that in Yogyakarta just one cities and then we want to make the national movement about domestic worker issue and because domestic worker issue is about the gender bias class bias feudalism modern Slavery and trafficking. I saw Ross’s bias . So why are we because the domestic worker issue is feminist issue. So, and also human rights issue worker issue, everything is an issue for domestic workers. So we must advocate this issue and as an organized domestic worker, her domestic worker can make the union represent their interest to claim their rights and make that and yes, as long as they like, no. Yeah. Okay.
Krithika Dinesh:
Thank you so much for sharing. And I wish you all the best with the new legislation.
Lita Anggraini:
Thank you. I’m very, very worried and super stressed to make it there. And, yeah, because its political constitution lesson very influenced the process also and but the factor is about the interests of the members of parliament, as employers and then as legislators that struggle with their constituents, such as domestic workers.
Krithika Dinesh:
Thank you, Lita, for sharing these important developments from the domestic workers movement in Indonesia. There’s so many aspects that go into advocacy that you’ve highlighted today. Research, organizing and mobilizing protests, meeting with elected officials and hunger strikes. And that advocacy takes so much time when the odds are stacked against you, when those who are in power and making decisions are the employers themselves. I and I’m sure all our listeners wish you and the movement success. Dear listeners, please as always, check the links in the description to learn about JALA PRT and their work. And thank you all for staying with us till the very end. Through this podcast seas we’ve heard stories of hope and inspiration from our esteemed guests. I hope all of you like me, carry it with you. I also hope you want to hear more stories like this. Please do share the series with your friends and comrades. Maybe we’ll meet again. Until then, it’s goodbye and thank you from me. A Sonologue production.

Keywords: social justice, community building, activism, human rights, domestic workers, South Asia

Credits:

Guest(s): Lita Anggraini – Co-founder and national coordinator of the National Network for Domestic Workers Advocacy Host: Krithika Dinesh WIEGO Team: Podcast Production: Chhavi Sachdev and the team at Sonologue: Sharad Joshi on sound design.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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Trailer

Hello and welcome to WIEGO and IDWF’s podcast “Domestic Workers Organising for Legal Change in Asia”.

My name is Krithika Dinesh and I’m the host of this limited series podcast that shares stories from the domestic workers’ movement across Asia. In our six episodes, you’ll get to know a variety of guests: domestic worker leaders, international labour rights experts, and grassroots organisers. They share breakthroughs, setbacks, and ongoing struggles to secure domestic workers’ rights in the region. Through their stories, we learn about the wide variety of legal and organising strategies used by unions and associations of domestic workers. You can listen to all the episodes on the IDWF and WIEGO websites or subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts

Fighting for legislation in Indonesia - Episode 6

Krithika Dinesh:

Hello, and welcome back to the last episode of our podcast, domestic workers organizing for legal change in Asia. In the sixth and final episode, we are in Indonesia. Southeast Asia’s largest economy has long relied on more than 4 million workers for household work of richness demeter, three out of four are women.

But Indonesia’s key labor law falls short of explicitly recognizing domestic workers in their labor law. Domestic Workers in Indonesia have spent more than two decades fighting for legislation to protect their rights. The key challenge they face is how to build political will among parliamentarians who are themselves employers of domestic workers and benefit from the status quo.

Today, we have with us Lita Anggraini from the National Network for Domestic Workers Advocacy, known as JALA PRT. She’s the co-founder and national coordinator of JALA PRT and carries with her over 30 years of experience with the domestic workers movement.

JALA PRT is a national network of unions, NGOs, legal aid institutes and allied social justice groups working to advance domestic workers rights across Indonesia. Lita shared some of the research, mobilization and advocacy strategies they’ve used over the years.

When I spoke with her in January 2024, it already crossed 100 days of a rotational hunger strike demanding that the long awaited bill moves forward in Parliament. So, to start us off, like could you just tell us a bit more about JALA PRT when it was formed, and about its members?

Lita Anggraini:

Yeah. JALA PRT has more than the team members, they are the members in the Domestic Workers Union of course. And then a women’s organization called the CSO Civil Society Organization. Yeah, it’s socio organization. And then Like Institute, and then also some red unions. Yeah. And also some CSO and the constant on Social Security, social justice, etc. Yeah.

Krithika Dinesh:

So, could you tell us a bit more about the union? When it was formed and how it was formed? Was it difficult when you had to get it registered?

Lita Anggraini:

A domestic worker is a characteristic worker because they work solo per house, so it’s different with the general workers that they have unions and also, their recruitment is different because they usually go from one company to one manufacturer to recruit; but to recruit and to organize domestic workers is very very different. We must recruit domestic workers door to door one by one. We use that method, to say in the press likes to say come and join us as unions to make a change of our situation.

And we, every city as it is different because it is also influenced by culture, lives in Jakarta differently with the other cities like in Central Java, where there are also Union of domestic workers also established. It has more than 13,000 member registered and more than 700 leaders from District until nightfall group 10 Yeah, that we did because we method up new leadership Domestic Workers Union from the center industry, and then in community base and then community bases mean like some district and then sub-sub district interface and then also grouping every 10 people and then the grouping again, because it’s very important to raise the domestic worker in house per house.

So we make groups of 10 people to make coordination to build communication and how to make intensive relations among members and in coordination in domestic worker unions like that.

Krithika Dinesh:

Okay. Thank you. So, you mentioned you use these different organizing strategies. So did you mean that they were broken into small groups according to their neighborhoods, lik, 10. And then they organized other domestic workers in the region?

Lita Anggraini:

Yeah, we recruit the members in different methods, first, we end the five in the map, the domestic worker we can meet, we can find, like seeing kindergarten, in the supermarket, or traditional market, in the station in the pastrimin and in the pitcher tables seller. Yeah. And also in the garden, public garden, we have the two methods of recruitment: First is online. We post our activities on social media, and we give contact numbers and also apply for recruitment. That’s directly face to face. I have to sell door to door and go to the market and go to kindergarten like that. But the more effective use is offline, because it’s hard to introduce ourselves, and also how to build communication directly to explain, and then how to invite to join our organization, and how to build trust, among our target domestic workers that we have to recruit to be a member like that.

Krithika Dinesh:

Okay, that’s really interesting. And so I had heard from Fish, the IDWF coordinator in Asia, that you’re presently working on bringing a new law for domestic workers. So could you tell us a bit more about that process, how it began, why it began? And what’s going on right now.

Lita Anggraini:

Yeah, we submit, we have dropped the domestic worker law since 1999. And, Misunder Robert research. And then after this, we tried to examine the draft with the Contra method between the domestic worker and the employer, and that employer has willingness to be partner in the examination of the draft of domestic worker and then after this, we submit the draft of domestic workers in 2004 and to, the parliament and the House of Representatives. And then after five years the drop of the domestic worker law became the legislation priority and that upset the 9 commissions that the commission handled in working the issue and also the power issue. And then they also make the wrap and 2010, the Parliament start to research, domestic worker intensive densities, and then they finish the draft and in 2012 they make a comparative study to South Africa and Argentina, and then 2013 they make public dialogue in three cities in Indonesia, and they finished the draft of the domestic worker, law 2013. And then they submitted, they just left the body because the legislative body is the body of the parliament, that authority to decide will continue to be deliberate or not.

But in 2014, the legislative body stopped the law. Yeah. It’s very long advocacy and struggle, because we face like this latter, the member of the Parliament, because you know, in Indonesia majority of the employers is from upper class and the low class and also in our parliament, and almost 100%, the employer, that higher domestic worker, so they’re contacting the RAs in Member of Parliament that they worry if the law will be passed, is will be influenced that the status quo the prepopulates that they get as employer during this time they as a employer they get replace the domestic worker because they can order the gift tax everything to the domestic worker without regulation. Yeah. Like domestic workers, Indonesia has long offered our unlimited burden of social security. Health is already announced employment security, no. One day off, no. Severance, no. No annual leave. Yeah. There is no rice for domestic workers in Malaysia. So this is the latest letter to worry about the domestic worker law.

Krithika Dinesh:

So you’ve been seeing it since 2014. It’s gone to the legislative body, but it still has not come through the law?

Lita Anggraini:

Yes, And then we tried again 2019 always with advocacy, but it was in the waiting lists of the priority. And then 2019 and then 2020 with the five step person of the legislative body as willingness, political witness to continue to deliberate the domestic worker, the draft of domestic worker law. And then like this legislative body, take the domestic worker, the draft, and finish the draft of domestic worker law. And then we do advocacy campaign, and we mobilize support on CSOs social movement like labor movement like that and also Of course, mass media play minor role to make, to rise, this issue to blow up this issue and the 2020 the legislative body finished the draft and then submit to the plenary after three years legislative body finish to 2023.
The President gave a statement that the President has a commitment to deliberate and pass the draft of the law as soon as possible, because it’s very important for domestic workers to make a big contribution to the state, and we must recognize them as workers and as their role and also fulfill their rights. And then the chairperson of Parliament kept responding that on the 21st of March the plenary of the parliament decided the domestic worker law became an initiative.

So I still need one step again, to pass the law. But now we are close to the general election.

Krithika Dinesh:

And so, what are some of the strategies that you used while advocating for this law? I heard that JALA PRT had gone on hunger strike for many weeks.

Lita Anggraini:

Yeah. Today’s the 100th, more than 115 we conduct hunger strike. We make a marathon like it’s tough when there are two or three people on hunger strike. But we go into parliament every day to show the parliament, to finish the domestic worker lobbying for people to election, and our people at the end of the three we demand as soon as possible. And we also addressed the chairperson of the parliament, the largest political party, where they have a slogan, for poor people.

Krithika Dinesh:

Okay. And what are some of the major challenges that you’ve encountered so far?

Lita Anggraini:

First, the Member of Parliament is also an employer. They have an interest in the situation as an employer that they didn’t want to change the privilege of the situation … In our meetings with the legislators, they always discuss their domestic worker that works in their house, or they go on days that domestic workers say no, they don’t want the domestic worker to say, I need one day off, because they don’t want the domestic worker asking the minimum wage like that. So they try to make the status quo. Yeah.

And the second challenge, also in the political situation, is the devaluation of the competition among political parties in running up the president of Canada, and also among the legislature, yeah. To run to be put that again as like this letter again. Yeah. And also just this minority issue in the parliament, because just a member of Parliament that supports us to promote the domestic worker law.

Krithika Dinesh:

Yeah, this is a common challenge that we see everywhere, the people in charge of making the law are also employers and they themselves don’t want to change. So what would you say are your two-three main hopes from this new legislation? What are the main things that you want to see?

Lita Anggraini:

The first is the content of the draft, this referred to in the ILO Convention 189, about decent work, and also social justice, social protection, and also inclusion. And the second also on the draft will be to continue to deliberate as soon as possible and pass this year in Riyadh as soon as possible. Not a wide election. Not be too wide until the second round of generalization like that. Yeah. The legislators have responsibility to finish the law to pass the law. Yeah. Because this is also 20 years in the parliament, just the only loan that is a very long process in the parliament.

Krithika Dinesh:

Yeah. Yeah. So I think yeah, your first hope is that it just gets passed this year. Yeah. And so without the laws now, what protections do domestic workers in Indonesia have, like, do they have any protection any law that they can rely on?

Lita Anggraini:

We have ministry regulation on the domestic worker law. But you know, that the ministry regulation is unbinded law, so cannot worse about the implementation and soon the ministry regulation in the domestic worker more right about the revelation about relationship on domestic worker with urgency, the recruiter urgency, and also it’s not about the rise of the domestic worker and the protection of domestic worker. yeah, like them.

Krithika Dinesh:

So the ministry regulation is more to do with recruitment agency and how that works

Lita Anggraini:

They regulate the agency in the midst of domestic worker rights protection like that. Yeah.

Krithika Dinesh:

Thank you so much. Before we let you go, like, could you share with us your story like how you started working in the domestic workers movement?

Lita Anggraini:

Yeah, I joined the domestic worker movement when I was a student in 1991. When I was student we, together with the women’s student, we established women’s student forum, and then we advocate about violence against women’s and also work on women’s Yeah, in and then also human rights and then in 1991 we get a news that one of the domestic worker in estaba and then we decide that we constant and focus on the domestic worker law, domestic worker issue and we must organize the domestic worker we must advocacy domestic worker to help law and also how to beat the conflict interest among citizen to domestic worker to become the common interest, because when we I was student is that focus is that in Yogyakarta just one cities and then we want to make the national movement about domestic worker issue and because domestic worker issue is about the gender bias class bias feudalism modern Slavery and trafficking. I saw Ross’s bias . So why are we because the domestic worker issue is feminist issue. So, and also human rights issue worker issue, everything is an issue for domestic workers. So we must advocate this issue and as an organized domestic worker, her domestic worker can make the union represent their interest to claim their rights and make that and yes, as long as they like, no. Yeah. Okay.

Krithika Dinesh:

Thank you so much for sharing. And I wish you all the best with the new legislation.

Lita Anggraini:

Thank you. I’m very, very worried and super stressed to make it there. And, yeah, because its political constitution lesson very influenced the process also and but the factor is about the interests of the members of parliament, as employers and then as legislators that struggle with their constituents, such as domestic workers.

Krithika Dinesh:

Thank you, Lita, for sharing these important developments from the domestic workers movement in Indonesia. There’s so many aspects that go into advocacy that you’ve highlighted today. Research, organizing and mobilizing protests, meeting with elected officials and hunger strikes. And that advocacy takes so much time when the odds are stacked against you, when those who are in power and making decisions are the employers themselves. I and I’m sure all our listeners wish you and the movement success. Dear listeners, please as always, check the links in the description to learn about JALA PRT and their work. And thank you all for staying with us till the very end. Through this podcast seas we’ve heard stories of hope and inspiration from our esteemed guests. I hope all of you like me, carry it with you. I also hope you want to hear more stories like this. Please do share the series with your friends and comrades. Maybe we’ll meet again. Until then, it’s goodbye and thank you from me.

A Sonologue production.

Keywords: social justice, community building, activism, human rights, domestic workers, South Asia

Credits:

Guest(s): Lita Anggraini – Co-founder and national coordinator of the National Network for Domestic Workers Advocacy
Host: Krithika Dinesh
WIEGO Team:
Podcast Production: Chhavi Sachdev and the team at Sonologue: Sharad Joshi on sound design.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Translating legal victories into real change in the Philippines - Episode 5

Krithika Dinesh:

Hello, and welcome back for the fifth episode of our podcast, domestic workers organizing for legal change in Asia. In this episode, we’re in the Philippines, a country that employs an estimated 2.5 million domestic workers globally and has deployed hundreds of 1000s of Philippinos as domestic workers overseas. In September 2012, the government ratified the domestic workers convention, C 189, and in January 2013, passed a comprehensive domestic workers act. It’s the only country in Asia to do so. Both are landmark victories for ensuring the rights of domestic workers in the Philippines are safeguarded. But what does it take to translate legal victories into real change in workers’ lives? Today, we have with us Himaya, from the United Domestic Workers Union in the Philippines.

Himaya is the General Secretary of the Union. She talks to us about the key features of the law, including the role that it gives the local government known as barangay. In implementing it, she also unpacks the strategies the union has adopted to support workers navigate practical challenges in securing the entitlements from employers and officials. And she does all of this while her son is competing for attention in the backdrop.

Thank you so much Himaya for agreeing to be recorded for this podcast. To start off with, could you tell us a bit more about United when it started, how it started.

Himaya:

So it is out of curiosity because at that time, I reliever at the Dickerson one of the daycare center is sponsored by the Labor NGO, the labor Educational Research Network, who has helping the community daycare center in one of the community in case and city then, at the same time I am domestic worker, one employer in household employer in Quezon City, so, my job, I have to jump in. So then because I am a domestic worker. So I know that there is convention 189. The in here to engage for the adoption of the convention 189 then before that, because I am very curious, because you know, I am a domestic worker then and I did not, I’m enjoying my right as a domestic worker. So I read some piles of the policies that the engage that the submitted into the Senate and in the Lower House and Congress. So that’s how we start because I gossip it, what I read is a gossip. It’s so my co-domestic worker in the area. And then in the neighborhood in Quezon City where the neighbor of my employer also has a domestic worker. So that’s what how we start to gather ourselves to become Union now, big union, because it is nationwide actually. And now united is the underscope is a national level, but the organizing is in the villages, we call it barangay. So, the barangay in the Philippines is the smallest unit in the government.

Krithika Dinesh:

For you it started the organization and then at what point did it become a huge trade union.

Himaya:

Because of that, we my co-domestic workers, we just how many of us I think we started in a small group, then eventually in 2011, we are 73 in a group but our name is not united. So it does transform along the way, when we know that there is an consultation, even we are not invited at that time because nobody knows us. But I just got into my friend who is a domestic worker, oh, we attend to the consultation in the congregation because we are domestic worker. So, we must know what they are lobbying to for us. Actually is, not only the right but we focus on the economic aspect, because the problem of that time is example for me. My salary is too small and the salary is so small, and then I don’t have these weekly off. And I have a lot of workload, because I, there, are three houses that I have to clean up every day. But the one is, we will just go there because it is quite far in the city. So we just go there twice a week. So that’s what, I did then as a domestic worker, but I don’t have the social benefits, though I NIGO sheet with my employer that I should have social benefits, which is the social security system. But she just said yes, then when I talk to my co domestic worker, they say that their problem is the same from my problem. And also the food that they eat is not good. And in the summary, we don’t have these savings, because we have a very small salary.

Krithika Dinesh:

I know there’s a law in the Philippines, which came maybe in 2013. So could you tell us how that came about? And what were the key changes that the law got in?

Himaya:

Yeah, we are very thankful because there are many trade union who is push and supported us and then a civil society, the labor NGO, who was there to fight for our rights, even that there is a law now, it is not quite significant for us, but because there is like gradual changes, but we are very thankful, because of that law, the physical abuse, the verbal abuse, and many abuses that we encountered before is that was listen and very still down. Like what is happening now that there is one domestic worker was abused and become blinded by her employer. But in we can see that in one decade, only one piece, who is very severe, or 123 cases who was very severe, but not like in our experience before like me that.

And there was rape, there was act of lasciviousness, and everything economic, physical and emotional, verbal abuse and psychological abuse, we encountered that. But today, we can say that the law helped a lot to change our situation. And even that the main employer did not give our benefits that are mandated in the law, even the main employer, that who are aware of their rights, even they are reluctant to obey the law. But the abuses is not very rampant. And the data shows that there are domestic worker who is enjoying of their social benefits. But the problem is that because of this misconception of the law, the employer did not abide us to enroll their domestic worker as their employee. Yeah, not many of them not following the law that way that the data shows very small, but there are employer who gives directly the benefits to the domestic worker but not enroll in the system. Yeah. Meaning that it did not show in the system because they did not enroll the employee example, me, I am the domestic worker, but my employer did not enroll me into the social benefits meaning that they did not fill up the form. They did not declare that I am their domestic worker, but they gave me money to give my monthly contribution in that social benefits.

Krithika Dinesh:

Okay, okay. That’s clear. Could you like take us a bit back first and tell us what all changes came through the law? To the cousin by? If I’m correct, that law that came in 2013?

Himaya:

Yeah, it makes a lot of changes. Because we have voice actually, we can, even though we don’t have invitation, we can lobby, we can go to the different agency got particularly Aha, have the authority to implement the domestic workers act. So it gives us voice as a domestic worker. And then there are many venues that we can tell our stories, we can negotiate with the employer, we can negotiate with the government agency, we can also collaborate them how to implement it properly.

Krithika Dinesh:

Okay. So how do you usually organize the domestic workers?

Himaya:

Yeah, we usually organize the domestic worker, like I start before I just stand by in the school or in that church, and then we have this contact building. So we will contact or example this house has domestic worker, so we build a relationship for that domestic worker so that the domestic worker in that area, she can, or he can invite for the meeting, our meeting is we talk about our personal experience, and what is the content of the Convention 189, and then that the content of the domestic workers law in the Philippines. So that’s what we organize. And then we also consult what they need as a domestic worker, so that we can also engage in the barangay level, for example, they want extra income So we engage in the barangay, we asked, or we inquire in the barangay they have this livelihood program, livelihood training, skills training for the domestic workers, so something like that, we include in our organizing strategy. And sometimes we talk to the employers because it gives us big impact, if we can help the problem of the employer with the domestic worker. So we build alliances, not only for the domestic worker, but also for the employers.

Krithika Dinesh:

Also an Employers Association in the Philippines, for domestic workers.

Himaya:

Actually, we don’t have this purely organization of employers for domestic worker, it is mixed, it is called that employers confederation of the Philippines, but it is not necessary that our association of the domestic workers employer, but that is our big challenge to have the domestic workers employer association. So we weren’t the collective bargaining that we wanted to is that the participation of the homeowners association of that particular city, so that we can talk about the benefits of that domestic worker and how the employer how we can help the employer to so that they can abide the law. So they can give the necessary or the mandated obligation for their domestic worker.

Krithika Dinesh:

Is a lot of power given to the local governments. Yeah,

Himaya:

Actually, the domestic workers law give the implementation power to the barangay level. So, the registration is in the barangay. And then the enrollment of the domestic workers is in the barangay level. So the databasing is conducted in the barangay. So for the implementation of the registration of the domestic workers, is very important because you can see how many domestic worker in the particular barangay how many employers that need assistance from the barangay to enroll their domestic workers, because most of the employer says that they do not have time to enroll their domestic workers. That’s why they are not able to enroll the domestic worker in the social benefits institution.

Krithika Dinesh:

And since 2013, like have you seen that in some barangays the law has been implemented, you know, well, or more than in the other barangays.

Himaya:

Yes, but are particularly in Quezon, city and Muntinlupa. Example, in Muntinlupa, in 2016, there one barangay, called barangay putatan, and pass the ordinance or resolution barangay resolution for the custom for domestic worker, so to enhance the registration of the domestic worker and rated at the obligation of the employer, for the registration of the domestic worker in their barangay. So that if there’s a problem in the future, the barangay can help the employer, with the matter of their domestic worker.

Krithika Dinesh:

And you were mentioning like that, through this law, now domestic work, the trade union can represent the workers to bring cases to the Labor Department. So do you see a lot of these cases? Or do they just comes once in a while?

Himaya:

Before there are a lot actually, I also experienced that I represent them in the Labor Department. And before it is very mild, in a sense that we just accompany them filing complaints, for their contribution for the social benefits. And other than that the complaint about their day off, because most of them employer did not give of their domestic workers that one day off in a week.

Krithika Dinesh:

Okay. And so why do you think the complaints are less now is it because like, now, it’s been 10 years that the law has come, there’s been some shifts in attitude of the employers or the government.

Himaya:

Maybe because the employer and the domestic workers knows how to deal to each other. So both of them, I think just taught the mother on their own, the problem that they are dealing, so that’s, that’s what we can see.

Krithika Dinesh:

And we also provide training to the workers who are more active like on the law.

Himaya:

Yes, we have this paralegal training, negotiation training, because very important for them to know that, how to handle the paralegal and not because that’s all we know, we know all right now, like that. So, they must handle it properly, how they talk to their employer, how they talk to the local government unit or or even in the regional level, because we have this regional level representation. So, we have this training, and then leadership training, because many of us even though we finish our studies, then we opted, we choose as a domestic worker, because it is very easy job to have no requirements like that and everything is free.

And then if you if you are really lucky, you can find very higher salary, it’s rents are 15,000 to 20,000. So, it is up to you how to uplift yourself how to acquired skills, but in the Union, we have this leadership training so that they can have these interpersonal skills, how to deal with a different attitude or behavior or manner of domestic work and also for the employer. So if the employer is very aggressive if the employer is not domestic worker friendly so they know how to deal with that kind of the employer. And then we have this gender orientation, so we just reiterate to them that even though we are Women, our union is more women, our member is dominant, of women members. But we should not forget that all of us are equal in the families, we just say to them in the training that we did that, they must know that all of us is equal regardless of our gender regardless of our identity, but we must teach the member of the family that our work is a valued work, it is not just our obligation in the family, so everybody must know how to do the household chores?

Krithika Dinesh:

What are the main features of the 2013 law? Like you can just tell me like 3, 4 points, like the main big rights that you got through the law?

Himaya:

Yeah. So the main features that we really wanted in the law is that there’s a section in the last I forgot what section is that, but to form or to join, or to assist the labor organization. So that is, this is very big impact for us. Because meaning that state really recognized us. And then the state recognized us as we are worker, like any other worker, and then we have this contract. So we, like other worker that they have also contract and the we can enjoy. I know that majority of us not doing it yet, but at least in the paper, they put it there that we have this, we have this contract, then the contract has the least of our rights and obligation of the employer. So our rights one is to join and form the union. And then our right to have these economic benefits, right to bargain, because there’s a section there that we have the collective bargaining we can have the collective bargaining, but I know that it’s lack of mechanism. But I know that we can also deal with that because the regional, and the national level heeded by the labor department is very accommodating, and it’s very cooperative for us, and they always consult us what we need. But of course, there’s always a hindrance, because the challenge, everything of that good features in our law, but the challenge is in the part of the employer, even the government agencies, the different government agency would like to really implement the law, but if there is no cooperation with the household employer, so the law it is not really possible, but we can see the green light that we can achieve this and we can enjoy this law in the future. Yeah.

Krithika Dinesh:

Okay. Okay. Thank you so much like, I wanted you to repeat it, because Philippines is one of the only country in Asia which is ratified the 189 and has such a strong law for domestic workers.

Himaya:

Yeah. I just mentioned those things, because I think that is really important, because the contract is really important, because this is the one document between the domestic worker and employer and this is also can be used as legal document between them and I am not bias, because there are many employer that is good also, as same as the domestic worker. There are domestic worker that not really that good, but because of this contract, it can help a lot to have this legal document between them and also What I really mentioned for the join and to form the union because it is very important because even though we are recognized that we can join, we can form a union. But there are also hindrances. But because of that, when we explain to that the employer and the other government agency, they say you have this, right. So, you know, our feeling is that it’s like a victory for us, even though there are many challenges in the implementation of the law. But in the small things, we think that, we gain this victory because of this small section of the law.

Krithika Dinesh:

Thank you for sharing your time and words with us, it’s heartening to hear how over time through legal change that there are some changes that you’ve seen behaviours. You shared some valuable lessons on how a shift has come in the government, through the recognition of the Union as a legitimate entity per employee, meant contracts are essential for individual domestic workers to assert their rights in how domestic workers are empowered to negotiate for their own and their comrades. Right. Thank you all for listening, and staying with us till now. Next week, we have our last episode in the series about domestic workers in Indonesia fighting to bring in a new law. Until then, it’s goodbye from me.

A Sonologue production.

Keywords: social justice, community building, activism, human rights, domestic workers, South Asia

Credits:

Guest(s): Himaya – General secretary of the United Domestic Workers Union in the Philippines,
Host: Krithika Dinesh
WIEGO Team:
Podcast Production: Chhavi Sachdev and the team at Sonologue: Sharad Joshi on sound design.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Realizing domestic workers rights in Nepal - Episode 4

Krithika Dinesh:

Hello, and welcome back to our podcast, domestic workers organizing for legal change in Asia. Today, in our fourth episode, we are in Nepal. In 2017, domestic workers were included in two major pieces of legislation, the Labor Act and the Social Security Act. But implementation has been very slow, convincing principalities to invest resources in the programs needed to register domestic workers, and expand social security coverage to them is an ongoing struggle.
Today, we have with us Gyanu Kshatri, who’s the general secretary of the home based Workers Union in Nepal. The union is also part of GEFONT, which is the General Federation of Nepalese Trade Unions. Gyanu talks about the challenges they’re facing every day, but organizing to implement the law and share a winning argument that domestic work is essential work.
Thank you, Gyanu for agreeing to be recorded for the podcast. So to start off with, could you tell us a bit more about your union, how it started, how were you involved?

Gyanu Kshatri:

Before becoming involved in the union, I was working for the national federation called GEFONT which is the general Federation of Nepalese trade unions. And I was working as an office secretary and I looked at the admin work. But as well as I was working with the homeless workers and volunteers, workers, beautician workers and domestic workers, unions, people also so my leaders requested and act to give me time for a week to make the decision. Either I will go as a bureaucrat, or I have to go to the union leader. So he gave me my expression and gave me the date to make the decision for a week. Meantime, it is very difficult for me to decide because, you know, for me, it’s very difficult in the financial sector. Also, if I left the bureaucrat office, then I may not get the Salary and Allowances. So how do I conduct my family and my finances? So I was in a very difficult situation, how can I make a decision but I have keen interest in working with the Workers Union also. So at last but not least, I think the decision is a strong decision of my life.

And I tried to get involved in the Union, and they offered me to be the treasurer, finance secretary in the union, or in the meantime, the union was also more like home based workers, domestic workers in our same union, so to raise the big voice. So we merged in 2013. So from that day, I started working formally in the union. Beside that, when I was in office secretary of the GEFONT I was working as a volunteer and make the members of the union and I conducted the meeting and management all things, but later on all accountability and responsibilities given to me because my president thought that I have only just the powers, I can lead in the unit. So I didn’t know I had that much power, but now I realized how they are receiving the vision of me. And I also, by working and working, I realized that I can lead and deal with the union’s people and deal with it. True that my union leader trusts me and gives me this responsibility.

Krithika Dinesh:

So you were saying that the union was formed in 2013. So could you tell more for our listeners, like, what is the union like, what kind of workers are there?

Gyanu Kshatri:

Yeah, we have two categories of workers. One is the Home Base workers and in other ways the domestic worker inside the domestic worker there are many percentage of the workers are leave out domestic worker few are is the leaving domestic worker because leaving domestic worker to organize leaving domestic worker is a very, very challenges and very, very, very big. Yeah, it is difficult.

Krithika Dinesh:

Okay. And so, I know that there was a new law that came in 2017 for domestic workers. So, could you tell us more about that?

Gyanu Kshatri:

Since 2002, we are demanding and lobbying and advocating regarding the social protection of the domestic workers. Maybe we are the first union and first national federation, GEFONT, who raise the voice of nurses, secretary protection as well as labor laws. So, we are demanding that labor and domestic workers should be endorsed with a different policy and sub law. But fortunately, they are able to endorse and enroll our domestic workers into the Labor Act in 2000, meaning just before six years, and then later now, Social Security Act also near that labor actor is developed but it is not implemented, it implemented after two years, but that is only for the formal workers not for the informal workers not for the domestic workers. But recently we are again advocating and demanding social security.

GEFONT developed the procedures for the informal workers and which was launchedn by our recent President, but it is not implemented by all municipalities and not implemented by all local governments. still not somehow only two or three municipalities are implementing and announcing that social security protection and registrations should be started; they announced this one but it’s still the work is going very slowly.

Krithika Dinesh:

So, through this law they brought in, the domestic worker should be registered and they should be given Social Security. What about minimum wages?

Gyanu Kshatri:

For Social Security they endorsed domestic worker also included in the informal workers in the law they mention only informal workers, because domestic workers already include the informal workers, they did not directly say that domestic workers but in labor law for the minimum wages case and for Labor Act, they separate right the domestic worker in the act number 838, 806, law 86 only
So far that minimum wages for the living worker – they said that this should be the different one, because they should deduct for morning and evening food, and if they sent the worker to the school, school fee also they have deducted and then risk they will give but for the part time and leave out workers – I think they will get more than minimum wage just because now minimum wages is 2,000. I think per hour they get 77 rupees and if they finish washing the clothes they will get 1000 Nepali rupees, so it is the based two ways is when the minimum wages

Krithika Dinesh:

When you were bringing in this law, what are the challenges you had faced when advocating with the government?

Gyanu Kshatri:

Yeah, first, I have to tell you honestly that when we go into the government, local government, they are really uninformed about the domestic worker. The first time they asked me do you think domestic workers are workers?

So, I told if domestic worker is not counted as addition for work and how can you go to the work in the outside? How can your family survive if domestic worker doesn’t come to your home? I asked them like this way. Before they did not realize domestic work as a worker, but recently, slowly, slowly government to local representatives and central government and ministry, the labor ministry they also realize now domestic workers are.

And nowadays in our country, most of the workers are migrating for financial settlements. So, there are the old hither and smallers. So,Old Age Care Centers are also very, very required. So nowadays care workers are very, very necessary.

And after 3 months, they give some caregiverorientation class and give some certificates, and then our domestic worker can get the jobt. So now before, it’s very difficult, even the domestic worker also don’t want to recognize their work. If they work as a domestic worker, they always lie, that they went to a friend’s home, they went to another market, but in the real sense, they are working in the house, but they did not want to tell them that they are a domestic worker.

So this is very, very challenging for one, they did not get the wages, and if they are harassed, then they will search and come to the union. Otherwise, they did not want to join the union. And they always want to hide their position and post off the job. So now nowadays, it’s another thing is that if the domestic worker want to know that I am a domestic worker, and I work here but their husband, their family don’t want to highlight that woman is the domestic worker, this is also very great challenges for us to unionize the worker in a scattered way scattered place. Same from the government side and also from the employer side. It is very challenging because they did not realize that it is the work, domestic worker’s work. So this is the big challenge itself.

Krithika Dinesh:

How did you convince the government when they said we don’t think domestic workers are workers?

Gyanu Kshatri:

I have a good example that one of the Secretary of the Labor ministry. They called us when there was the discussion of the ratification of ILO Convention 189, He asked me, Sister and you told that domestic workers would require this much minimum wages, this much facility, social protection, and we have only this much money. If we give all our money to the domestic worker, how can we survive in our household? How can we give our baby the school’s fee and everything like this?

And I said, no, brother, you are wrong, we did not demand all your salary to provide for the domestic workers. just one salary will be taken by the domestic worker. And I ask you, Brother, if your domestic work does not come to your house –, your mother, father or mother or your baby, do you think you and your wife will go outside to earn the money to get the income? You can come here to work and to earn all the money because of the domestic worker, not because of you … because the domestic worker is working in your house and caring looking. So, that’s why you are here with the free mind work and you get the salaries, but you know, domestic workers somewhere still are scattered, they really still do not want to say that they are a domestic worker, that is the main challenge.

Krithika Dinesh:

So, how do you sort of organize domestic workers in your union?

Gyanu Kshatri:

Yeah my experience and my other our unions, colleagues experiences is that we organized the members first friend to friend, that domestic worker bring the another domestic worker one way and in their ways we find the domestic worker in the market in a time of the buying the basic table style breakfast meal break, they came to the store to buy that one at that time, because of the dress up because of the domestic worker is quite different and we already recognize the domestic worker being a leader. And another thing is we went to the government school. It is cool because domestic workers always go to the government school and we can connect with the principal of this government school. And another one is the now we have to we have our General Federation of Nepalese State Union Fund have seven province and they have offices in the seven province and from that office also they also help us leader union other leader also help us to organize the new area and place but after taking the training of ILO, we are now doing the another exercise like PRA you know Participatory Rural Appraisal method, we did matrix and that is tool different tools like matrix and problem tree and social mapping like this way and for before mapping we take the help of the local government representative, because our different Federation have many members who are elected in the local government nowadays and through them, we went that area and municipality first and man is for the simple meeting with men, men workers and then men worker, they will bring the another worker.

So, we are doing the mapping, social mapping matrix, pro problem tree and we say that this is the your problem this is your problem in the root and in the stream tell me what is the reason of your problem in the upper when there is the fruit side that upside to it will say that there is the solution. That’s why your solution is to unionize. So, you have to come to the Union like this, we will convince them and then they will come to the union and you realize if we gather 100 people, only 50 members will be organized. These are the two things.

Krithika Dinesh:

How many domestic worker members do you have now?

Gyanu Kshatri:

More than 10,000. But this time we have a new one. It is in our planning I find that the more room this worker is growing up nowadays. You know why? Because when they are retired from the job, most of the women and men are working in the garments they bring to the garment and they bring to the home and they are stitching and weaving and they are painting and so on they are working.

Krithika Dinesh:

So coming back to the domestic workers. So you said like now there are minimum wages and Social Security for domestic workers. So how does Social Security work, what is included and how have you been trying to implement it?

Gyanu Kshatri:

Yeah, first still our domestic worker did not get the Social Security fund and they did not register it. First we are advocating and lobbying to the government, local government because all authorization is given to the local government nowadays. So, local government we are doing the interaction orientation meeting etc we did still we are lobbying and advocacy to some new municipality specifically we work for 3, 4 municipality among that municipality only one municipality started the registration the domestic worker first, they did not say that domestic worker only they announced for the informal workers registration, so, it is easier they give their identity card and each year they have to renew that card. And then for Social Security, they promised us that within a year they are first doing the pilot survey and after that, how can they provide Social Security to them? So, but they promise and commit to us they are starting from that.

Krithika Dinesh:

Yeah, so that was my next question. You said the government doesn’t have a Social Security fund. So, how is it working? Like, does the worker have to contribute the employer contributes or is just the government giving?

Gyanu Kshatri:

Those domestic workers have the procedure already announced – that if the self-employer or home workers and domestic workers want to contribute – 20% to 21% from their side – and on the other side, governments will contribute if there is no employer.

Okay, so our union is angry, but the union is still lobbying that that money should be given by the employer or if the employer does not agree, then governments should be giving that contribution. So that means I will transfer you, but the government announced the procedures of the social protection contribution fund that they can involve their employer or they can demand for their local government. It is an option.

Krithika Dinesh:

Thank you so much Gyanu for sparing your time and sharing your experience in organizing and advocating for domestic workers rights.

It was really wonderful to listen to you and learn about the work from organizing like you going door to door and worker to worker to actually mobilize domestic workers. You also highlighted something extremely important: the stigma associated with domestic work. Even though enabled domestic workers now have legal protections, domestic work is still looked down upon by employers and sometimes workers themselves. We have a long way to go to change the way domestic work is looked at, and to make sure that domestic workers are recognized as valued and dignified work just like any other work.

Thank you all for listening.

As always, we have links and resources for those listeners who want to know more about Home Based Workers Union in the past and the labor law. In our next episode, we will talk with Himaya from the Philippines to hear about her experiences organizing, advocating for implementation of the law. Until then it’s goodbye from me.

A Sonologue production.

Keywords: social justice, community building, activism, human rights, domestic workers, South Asia

Credits:

Guest(s): Gyanu Kshatri – General secretary of the Home Based Workers Union in Nepal
Host: Krithika Dinesh
WIEGO Team:
Podcast Production: Chhavi Sachdev and the team at Sonologue: Sharad Joshi on sound design.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Migrant domestic workers and their rights in Hong Kong - Episode 3

Krithika Dinesh:

Hello, and welcome back to the third episode of our podcast, Domestic Workers Organizing for Change in Asia. Today, we’re joined by two guests from Hong Kong. An estimated 400,000 migrant domestic workers play a critical role in keeping the global cities running. Despite being covered by many of the same labor protections as local workers, they face a range of challenges in seeking redress for abusive working conditions.

Firstly, I’d like to welcome Jec. Jec is the General Secretary of the Hong Kong Federation of Asian domestic workers unions (FADWU). She will talk about domestic workers protections and entitlements in Hong Kong. We’ll also discuss the particular challenges migrant domestic workers face in claiming the rights such as the so-called two week rule, which she tells us all about.

Thank you so much, Jec for joining us today. And we are really looking forward to hearing and learning from you about domestic workers in Hong Kong. So, in the first instance, could you tell us more about FADWU and how it was formed? What is its strength?

Jec:

Okay. FADWA is a federation of Asian Domestic Workers Union, which consists of five nationalities. It includes Nepal, Thailand, Indonesia, Philippines, and of course, the local Hong Kong local domestic workers. This was formless in 2010. It is also the first Federation of domestic workers, which has been registered to the registry of trade unions in Hong Kong. Fado is educating migrant domestic workers to empower them regarding labor rights and welfare, especially women whose majority is domestic workers. So we are also providing paralegal with regards to their cases of domestic workers. So it is very important for us to educate them regarding labor rights, and their welfare. Likewise, we are also advocating and fighting a better labor situation of domestic workers in Hong Kong. So we are organizing locals and migrants.

Krithika Dinesh:

And you mentioned that FADWU is the first trade union of domestic workers it’s registered with. So what do you think is more advantageous to form a trade union as it helps to struggle in Hong Kong? Oh,

Jec:

Yes, we could say that trade union is, of course, a big advantage to all of us, because it is very easy for us to lovingly lobby the government, as they are recognizing our trade union. We had this kind of conversation, we had this kind of talk every year with the Labor Department with regards to our labor rights wages in our labor protection? So in this factor, since they are recognizing us, we also had the voice and we had the chance to talk with the government? Yeah. Okay.

Krithika Dinesh:

yeah, so forming a trade union is one right that domestic workers have there. But Could you tell us some more about what are the broad rights that domestic workers in Hong Kong are entitled to?

Jec:

If we talk generally for domestic workers, not only for migrant domestic workers, we have a lot of rights here. We have a lot of we are entitled for one rest day, we are entitled for maternity leave statutory holiday, annual leave, sick leave, and free medication. We are also benefited from long service and severance pay with all these entitlement domestic workers is not the same as law. So even we have this broad of the same entitlement as domestic workers, migrant domestic workers had an exclusion example, rest days, we are not entitled to have 24 hours though, it was written in the employment ordinance that we are entitled to one to 24 hours, the majority of migrant domestic workers had its own curfew, they have to work before they go out. And they have to work before they come back.
So they are not enjoying the kind of 24 hours rest day, unlike with other domestic workers, which is what I’m referring to with those locals and likewise with those from mainland China.

Secondly, we also had free medication for migrant domestic workers when we had the contract terminated, or we have already finished our contract. We are no longer entitled for this. Unlike with the local domestic workers. We have entitlement. For migrants, though we are, if considering others. Yes, we had a large number of migrant domestic workers here. But, of course, there’s always an exclusion of rights. Because we are migrants, of course, they are local. So we could say they had to prioritize the locals, rather than migrants.

Krithika Dinesh:

What about employers in Hong Kong? Is there an Employers Association in Hong Kong? And are they very active?

Jec:

There is an Employers Association in here, which is a big factor why is too hard also to for us to pursue our, our fights, because there’s always two sides in here, the side of employer and sides of domestic worker example wages. For the employers, they want the minimum wage to be lowered, despite 4800 they want it to be 4500. And there is this association of domestic workers who want to fight for a higher salary. So there is this kind of struggle with the Employers Association. Yeah, they are very active with regards to fighting also with their rights as an employer. So there are these broad rights. So how is the general level of implementation of these rights? There are these really strong rights on paper, but how are they being implemented?

Jec:

If we talk about implementation, of course, it was not properly implemented, though we had a lot of protection loss and welfare in the unemployment ordinance in the standard working standard contract. It was not properly implemented. That is why there are still a lot of domestic workers who are being harassed and abused despite being in a live-in condition. So it triggers all of these protection laws that have been provided, we could say that there’s still a big exclusion, if we talk about migrant domestic workers example, here is that access to justice, we had the two weeks rule, we had the problem of overcharging of employment agencies. We had this exclusion of the minimum and above all allowable wage and mandatory pension fund. So these are the parts of protection laws and welfare of domestic workers, which migrant domestic workers were excluded from. And maybe the big factor is that they are not recognizing domestic work as a word.

Krithika Dinesh:

And you also mentioned earlier, like there are paralegals that are there. So could you tell us a bit more about that? Are these domestic workers trained or and what do they do?

Jec:

Since it is our part of educating and empowering domestic workers, we are really going into a training example for the case team. We have had a training for the whole year to study the labor rights and welfare, protection, rights and welfare of in Hong Kong in order for us to help our core domestic workers in filing cases in helping them to go to the labor tribunal court in order for them to know what are they going if they are abused, if they are harassed? So secondly, we are also providing a lawyer with them in partnership with our NGO. Lawyers? Yeah.

Krithika Dinesh:

And what would you say are the major challenges that you’re encountering when you know you’re trying to implement these rights?

Jec:

Oh, the first challenge is really very hard. Because first in Hong Kong domestic workers were not recognized as work. So there’s this kind of challenge that we have. So since you are not recognized as a worker, that privilege is so little that you will still be discriminated against. It still feels like you are asleep in here. Despite this loss that has been existing. We also chat. It is a challenge. Also the long working hours. The rest days that we have the exclusion of the minimum allowable wage, were in domestic week. migrant domestic workers in the living condition are 24 hours on call, but we had the minimum we had the lowest wage among all the domestic workers in here, so, of course, this is the challenges that we are facing with that two week rule, the Access to Justice, this discrimination. We had the two weeks rule as well. So there’s a lot of challenges, especially if you have a case here. And you had only two weeks to stay. How can you struggle with your case? Yeah.

Krithika Dinesh:

Could you explain for our listeners, like what is the two weeks rule,

Jec:

okay, for two weeks rule is only imposed for migrant domestic workers, excluding locals. So when we say, two weeks roll, once you have terminated your contract, or you are terminated, you have only two weeks to stay in Hong Kong, to find a job. Whether you find a job or not, you have to go back to your place of origin to wait for your visa, or to find or to start looking for another employer going back here. So unlike with a Domestic Workers Local, of course, they can be found anytime. So we have a limited time here. And that makes it most difficult, especially if you’re having a dispute with your employer.

Because if we could see what we needed to go back again, in our place of origin, where in fact, we are already here, so we find this, a discriminatory action example, which is why a lot of domestic workers are not pursuing their cases. If you have two weeks here, and you have to renew your visa to stay, you have to pay it again. And again and again, that makes migrant domestic workers difficult to pursue their cases. Because first, they don’t have a source of income. You cannot work while a case is going on. You have this limit of time. So we are already telling them to abolish this two week story because this is one factor also why employment agents are abusive, abusing those domestic workers who are looking for a job.

Krithika Dinesh:

There is no way that you can buy a few of them once you’re out of the country!
Has FADWU tried to sort of overcome this two week rule even if the worker goes back to their home country?

Jec:

This is the reason why we kept on fighting. Or we kept on lobbying the government because way back in the pandemic time domestic workers who had lost his jobs didn’t need to go back to their place of origin. But – now it’s normal, why are you asking them to go back to their place of origin if you have already done it during a pandemic? So that is why we are struggling with the government to abolish that totally. We cannot do anything with domestic workers after they go back to their place of origin because that is already a rule. That is a policy that was being implemented by the immigration of Hong Kong.

Krithika Dinesh:

And before we let you go, I would ask about the law. Could you tell us what are some of the changes in the law you would like to see?

Jec:

In regards to the laws in Hong Kong, we find it so beautiful, but we want it to be strictly implemented. Because even how beautiful a law is, if you’re not properly implementing it, it’s nonsense. Second, in implementing they have also investigated and inspected those illegalities that were done by employer and employment agencies. Third, maybe of course, it is very significant for us that they had to recognize that domestic work is work. That is only the thing that we feel that we are, we are well protected, accepted in this society. Yeah.

Krithika Dinesh:

To help illustrate the realities of these legal limitations on workers’ lives, we have our next guest, Sarah, who is the vice president of the Union of Nepalese Domestic Workers in Hong Kong. They’re affiliated with FADWU, the Hong Kong Federation of Asian Domestic Workers Unions. The Union of Nepalese Domestic Workers in Hong Kong was established in 2015 and comprises migrant domestic workers.

Sarah, who’s a domestic worker herself, will be sharing the story of a live in domestic worker in Hong Kong from Nepal, and how the Union supported her when her rights are grossly violated her employer

Sarah:

I had one case in 19 and one case last year 2022 she was abused by her employer. And then the story came up to me; her neighbors called me, the employer abused me a lot. And then the employer was very bad with the previous worker also. So somebody called me and then the story was on hold from October until January. After that, the girl, Alyssa Nirmala, was tortured by her boss a lot. And then the thing is, she was abused in everything. And she was still new in Hong Kong. So serious, she was very new. So she didn’t know anything about Hong Kong, and what was going on, and the rules and regulation and she didn’t have to go to the markets.She was not allowed to go by herself. So she has no idea. Because if we go to a new country, or new places, we all are facing those things. That’s like, culture shock, right?

And besides that, she was a very, very young girl. So I went there, I got that call in October 2022. But the call was, again, the victim didn’t call me and then the next time on January 19, I got a call. So it was very serious. And I heard that the girl was running away from the house. And then I had the story that she want to go for suicide to kill herself. Because she has some loan in our hometown in the country, and then she got some loan to come to Hong Kong. So she came to Hong Kong, but it was not a good time for her. So she decided to suicide or kill herself. But she ran away from the house in the morning. And then she had no idea where she went; she had a phone though. then after that I got a secret address. She left her work because her employers abused her; they cut her hair; And frequently the lady boss was hitting her and then putting her down just like, “You don’t sit beside my children. You don’t come close to my children,” but still she had to cook and work and everything else.

But that time, I think it was too much; she couldn’t take any more, so she had to run away, because She didn’t have anybody in Hong Kong. So she was just like, everything was very bad for her and then she made a decision to die. So it was a very painful story. And then her boss even got her here. And then she also used to throw some food on the top of her body like from head to toe, some toppings and vegetables. She also used to poke her with the hanger. These things happened to her. And it was very sad.

And then suddenly, the first person who called me on October 28 2020 to see me again, called me in January and we found out we didn’t know where she was and we had no clue where she was gone. And certainly just like we were very blind when we didn’t know where she was. And then January 19, she was the whole day in the pack, the whole day in the park. And 20 I only had about her on 20 and 20 whole day and then suddenly in the night.

And Harney was also going to find her. And then it was such a tough time because she was and her phone battery was almost going off. We don’t know what to do. We don’t know we have no word I don’t know. And then suddenly, and the lady who called me told her, “Don’t worry, just come back to the house,” because they were in the same building as her boss and then we’re in the same building. Suddenly Nirmala told me that she, suddenly had changed her mind not to not to suicide herself not to die, because she was thinking about her parents and her family. And she thought that some loan I have, that doesn’t mean I have to die. So I have to live and do something, just face the world, she decided,

Krithika Dinesh:

Once she got in touch with you what happened next

Sarah:

So the lady told her in case you decided to come home, I’ll take care of you. So after work, I just asked for permission from my employer, just to go and find her. And then my employer, there is family, they are good people. So they say okay, you can go so I just ran with this, like very nothing prepares us, like take my handbag and run to find her. But it was a good thing. And in the meantime, she came back home in the evening. So the thing was, then we have to bring her in. I got a call that the other lady was very, very, just frightened. And she asked me, let’s go to the police. Let’s go to the police and I say just calm down, and let’s hold and wait, maybe she will change our mind and come back home. Just like we have some belief in it. So that happened. And then I was on the bus, it was a very restless time. And then the lady called me back almost says here in our building, hiding and hiding behind the steer right now the stare is very dark, and then the lady bring her to her house and then see return and then help ours it’s like if our food, then give her bed and give her some changes, something like but everything happened. And in the morning, I brought her to the police station with one of my friends.

And then we went to the police station. So when we are in the police station, the employer also after two days, they are in the police station, they do come to the police station. And the first day and the employer, both of them the men and the couple, both of them come to us aggressively, to fight with us. But the police departed, into a separate room. Them she was very worried. And then on the same day on Sunday, we brought her to our shelter. And so we moved her to the shelter so she could sleep there.

We had many, many hearings in the court. There’s two or three of them who helped us because I’m just like I work in the house. So even though my employer is very good, I cannot keep going out. So I have to give them respect. So and then was the one to follow up. And then finally, we got to end the case because the girl could not talk too much. She was just frightened. And the employer heaped more abuse, this aggressively even in the court, and she had no idea, because two of them cannot communicate in a language. She doesn’t know English, the employer doesn’t speak Nepali or Hindi. So both of them just couldn’t press too much.

So she finally decided to settle with a small amount, but we are not satisfied with that one. So this other story right now and then we are having her again in a criminal case. The employer was already sued for the criminal case. Right now, she has gone home.

Krithika Dinesh:

So the two types of cases that were going on were a civil case and a criminal case.

Sarah:

The first one is already done.

Krithika Dinesh:

So could you tell us a bit more about that case? What were the demands of the Nirmala and what she got

Sarah:

Nirmala demanded her holidays or unpaid salary. And then and then she wanted all the statutory holidays that are the things we are getting an ongoing like Saturday holidays, and then the salary was unpaid. And then her weekly holiday weekend was no holidays. So these things happened.

Krithika Dinesh:

When these cases are ongoing, is it possible for the case to continue with the migrant domestic workers back home or they have to be in Hong Kong?

Sarah:

No, they can still continue back home until somebody is here for them. We’ll stand or witness like fadarz handling now. And also some migrant workers, if they have not claimed any of their rights, money or things, so they can even go to their country and claim back from there. So someone can handle it from here, within one year, I know within one year we can claim our country. We don’t have to be here

Krithika Dinesh:

That’s great. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing the story with us.

Sarah:

No problem. You’re welcome.

Krithika Dinesh:

Thank you so much.

Thank you, Jec, and Sarah for giving us your valuable time. And thank you, all of us for joining us today. Today, we had a chance to hear about another layer of vulnerability that migrant domestic workers face. In laws, they often have weaker and different provisions as compared to other domestic workers, like the two week rule, by which they have to go back to their home country when they lose or quit their jobs. And in practice, as you’ve heard, it’s extremely challenging to seek redress. There are very limited options for migrant workers if they want to leave their jobs. Unions play a critical role in supporting them to navigate complex realities of the legal system. I leave you with that thought for today. Please check the links in the description to learn more about FADWU and their work. In our next episode, we’ll spend some time with Gyanu and hear about her experiences in implementation of laws for domestic workers and Nepal. Until then, it’s goodbye from me.

A Sonologue production.

Keywords: social justice, community building, activism, human rights, domestic workers, South Asia

Credits:

Guest(s): Jec and Sarah
Host: Krithika Dinesh
WIEGO Team:
Podcast Production: Chhavi Sachdev and the team at Sonologue: Sharad Joshi on sound design.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

The legal landscape for domestic workers in Asia - Episode 2

Krithika Dinesh:

Hello, and welcome back to a podcast series Domestic Workers Organizing For Legal Change In Asia. In this episode, we continue to look at region wide trends. Almost two thirds of domestic workers remain fully excluded from national labor laws in Asia. And the ratification of international labor conventions, is notably lower than in other parts of the world. Yet, domestic workers play an essential role in meeting direct and indirect care needs of households across Asia. How can we leverage the increasing attention on the care economy to push for change?

We’re very excited to have Rebecca Napier Moore with us today. She’s a technical officer of the International Labor Organization, and has deep expertise on the labor conditions, legal protections and organizing strategies of domestic workers across the region. We discussed the good, the bad and the ugly. When it comes to laws and policies for domestic workers. We learn about some of social, economic and political developments reshaping the legal landscape across Asia.

Thank you so much, again, Rebecca for agreeing to do the podcast. It’s really good to have you here. So just to start us off, could you tell us a bit about the International Labor Organization’s work related to domestic workers in Asia?

Rebecca Napier Moore:

Sure. So first of all, we’re grounded in research. And in the last few years, we’ve done studies on legal progress since convention 189, the domestic workers convention, we’ve done policy gap analyses to see what needs to change in a country’s laws for the country to comply with C189, we’ve done studies looking at working conditions in the sector, skill levels in the sector. So asking domestic workers what tasks they’re actually doing, and then matching that up with internationally agreed skills classification. Then we’ve looked at levels of recruitment costs for migrant domestic workers, and appetite for Social Security inclusion among domestic workers and their employers. So all of these we’re doing with domestic workers involvement, which is really key for us.

And from there, we work with domestic workers to advocate for change. So we hold with policy makers and media for domestic workers to get their messages out. Last year, for instance, in Thailand, domestic workers talked with the Social Security office staff a few times and its board members. And then also, we hugely support domestic workers organizing in current associations or unions, as well as the formation of new groups. So I’m excited to tell you that in Myanmar, there is the establishment of a new domestic worker Association. And in Malaysia, there have been formation of new groups and Singapore. So all within the last three years, quite a lot of progress in organizing that we’ve been able to support, but domestic workers are really doing it.

And then, and then we’re promoting policy change, and countries ratification of C 189. And sometimes this is advocacy, sometimes technical advice on laws when governments ask us for our help. And sometimes it’s getting all the parties around the table through tripartite dialogues.

Krithika Dinesh:

Okay, fantastic. So you spoke a lot about work related to convention 189. And I had noticed that in Asia, like there’s actually a very low level of ratification. So could you tell us like, what do you think the reasons could be for this?

Rebecca Napier Moore:

Sure. It’s, it’s hard to say exactly what reasons are. But one reason is that overall, Asia’s level of ratification of any international labor convention is low. So not just ratification levels for C 189. Specifically. And if you look within the region, East Asia and the Pacific, are ratifying at a significantly lower rate than the rest of Asia. Several countries in the last couple of years have started to ratify some conventions, mostly the fundamental conventions around freedom of association and collective bargaining, forced and child labor discrimination and OSH and they’ve started doing this after these long periods of what we call ratification drought. So hopefully, hopefully there is some momentum gaining. More specific to C 189, however, is the lack of recognition of domestic work as real work in the region. We did a study a few years back, looking at discourse in Southeast Asia where domestic workers are called helpers and these maids, not workers. And when you start from there even looking at what like, what wording is used in national languages, terminology can get pretty demeaning, and rarely signifying that domestic workers are squarely workers with rights to an eight hour work day to minimum wage, etc. So without seeing domestic workers as workers, there’s little progress to extend labor protections in the sector. And then from there to ratify, C 189.

Krithika Dinesh:

So there’s this low level of ratification, but that aside, like, have you seen that there have been any major shifts that have occurred in different countries since the invention 189 came into place? And I don’t know if this would be too much to ask, but could you say that these changes that came in place are related to the adoption of 789?

Rebecca Napier Moore:

Sure. So I think, I think in the Philippines, we can probably say, we could probably see a relation to C 189. So in the Philippines, in 2013, after ratifying 789, and the government adopted comprehensive legislation for domestic workers, recognizing domestic work as a formal labor sector, requiring a contract, minimum wage, and employer paid social security coverage, so I think that one we can point to a change after the convention, then there’s a couple of other things I can talk about recent changes we’ve seen, that may not necessarily be related. So one is in Malaysia, recently, the legal term domestic servants, had been on the books for a long time and really set the scene for negative social norms. And this was changed to domestic employees. So that’s a win. Also, in Malaysia, Social Security has recently been extended to domestic workers, which is a huge change from the Social Security office there. And this is in a country where employers are still not legally obliged to pay minimum wage. So that’s the fact that their Social Security is really great. Another thing that’s changed in recent years has been a change to restrictions on migration for domestic work. And in 2017, we did a study in the ILO on gender related bans on women moving within Southeast Asia, to seek paid work. So moving for labor migration. And at that time, several countries that we were looking at Philippines, Indonesia, Myanmar, Cambodia, Lao PDR, all had various kinds of bans on women moving and including bans on moving for domestic work. So a few years on now, I’m happy to say that almost all of these countries, and except the Philippines, which still has a couple of restrictions, nearly all the countries have removed the bans on migration for domestic work, and are working to increase the labor protections for women migrant domestic workers doing this through mo use or other bilateral agreements.

Krithika Dinesh:

So these legal changes that have come about have happened, would you say because of the organizing efforts of domestic workers, because you mentioned in the beginning how you work with closely with domestic worker organizations and movements to, for advocacy. So could you tell us a bit more about what the organizing seen across Asia looks like? Have there been any different subjects and organizing in Asia?

Rebecca Napier Moore:

Yes. Okay. October 26, is day 73 of Indonesian domestic workers hunger strike. Our friends at the National Network on Domestic Worker Advocacy, which is called PRT. Our domestic worker leader friends in Indonesia and other domestic worker groups are hunger striking for the government to pass the domestic workers protection bill. This is something that the deliberation on the bill began in May. The bill was first proposed almost 20 years ago, in 2004. And the bill would insist on written contracts, it would penalize violence, it would create an avenue for complaints and then introduced rights to training, health insurance and social security. So the workers are really insisting now and they’ve called for this for a long time. And finally, we have gotten to the place where hunger striking is the last resort to get this bill passed activists on the ground say they’re really hopeful that their efforts are going to work, and the bill will pass. Amazingly, however, the bill still does not set a minimum wage, or maximum hours for domestic workers. So lots of new protections, but not everything. You asked me also about laws across the region earlier. So I’ll segue a little bit to some findings from a review we did for the 10th anniversary of C 189. And we have seen that in Asia and the Pacific 61.5% of domestic workers remain fully excluded from labor laws. And on the other hand, no country is fully including them in general labor laws. So countries have instead tended to adopt specific laws on the sector, just like Indonesia is looking to do. And while this approach can be seen as an effort to ensure sector specific protections for domestic workers, domestic work specific laws, don’t tend to afford domestic workers the same rights and protection as other workers and domestic workers receive less favorable entitlements. There’s also some really big changes happening right now in East Asia, economies are rapidly aging, and having to open up to migrant care workers for the first time. And so a few countries are opening up their immigration rules, relaxing restrictions, and having to figure out what labor laws will cover incoming migrant domestic workers. Unfortunately, in some places, this course is looking quite bad, with countries wanting to emulate other countries in the region like Hong Kong and Singapore, that have quite low pay for domestic workers. So in the Republic of Korea, there are newly announced plans to bring in domestic workers to work for lower wages than nationals, domestic worker organizations, they’re pretty vocal against this. In Southeast Asia trade union, organizing for domestic workers remains restricted in policy. Some places the restriction isn’t about domestic workers, but is about migrants. So restrictions saying migrants can’t become leaders of a union or migrants can’t join unions. And in countries where domestic workers are almost exclusively migrants, the effect is the same that it’s impossible for domestic workers to organize into unions. Domestic workers also have really practical barriers to organizing, so time poverty, inability to leave the households, they’re living and working in low wages, and leading to a low capacity to pay union dues. Low awareness among unions about the rights of domestic workers as workers. And then there’s also the labor intensiveness that it takes for unions to organize domestic workers, one worker at a time, one workplace at a time, because workers are quite isolated working in different households.

Krithika Dinesh:

Wow. So what would you’ve mentioned a lot of, say bad laws like where there are no minimum wages, the restrictions on maximum hours or restrictions on migrant workers moving about? So could you tell us if there are any examples of good laws or good policies that are there for domestic workers in some of these countries?

Rebecca Napier Moore:

I already mentioned the Philippines adopted comprehensive legislation for domestic workers in 2013, after they ratified the Convention, and the Philippines really shines in the region. I mentioned before that Malaysia has Social Security inclusion for domestic workers, including migrants, we just had a great meeting with Malaysia’s Social Security office and domestic workers there in June to see how more domestic workers could be reached for inclusion, and maybe also how more benefits within Social Security could be extended. Malaysia also has committed in its national action plan on forced labor to consider adoption of the minimum wage order for domestic workers. And this comes on the back of ratification of the ILO forced labor protocol. So sometimes we can use other conventions besides C 189, to push for rights for domestic workers. In Singapore, there’s a couple of really good practices there. So domestic workers do you have to have health insurance. There’s compulsory training for first time employers and first time domestic workers.

And Singapore last year started follow ups with migrant domestic workers in their first year, in their first year, within Singapore, so making sure that somebody checks in with them.In January, this year, there was also policy change in Singapore, and sharing that employers must give domestic workers one day off a month. So while domestic workers do one day off every week, there’s a regulation that this can be compensated so that employers can ask domestic workers to work on their Sunday off and pay them for that, which, in some cases meant in practice, that people were never getting a day off. So now, they really have to get at least one of those Sundays off per month.

In Thailand, there’s quite a lot more flexibility for domestic workers. And I think this flexibility and policy means that domestic workers have quite a bit more freedom. So living in is not required where it is, and Singapore and Malaysia, nor is an employer paid Levy. So in Singapore and Malaysia, there is a tax to employ a domestic worker, Thailand has a draft to reform ministerial regulation on domestic work that if passed, would allow inclusion in minimum wage hours and maternity leave regulations. So that would be really good if that happened in Thailand, and hopefully, that’s on the horizon coming up.

Krithika Dinesh:

And what would you say about once these laws are in place? Because the domestic worker sector so unique, like, workers work in private homes, they’re scattered across the city or town? So have you seen or heard about what are some of the practical challenges that, you know, countries face where they actually sort of start implementing these policies or laws?

Rebecca Napier Moore:

Let me talk about two kinds of challenges that I’ve heard recently which are challenges to both pass a law and then to implement. So the first is that employers do want domestic workers to work more than eight hours. And right now, this is normal practice. And there’s concern that care needs of a country won’t be met, if instead of one person working and on standby for 24 hours, to care for a terminally ill person or a baby. So instead of this work around the clock, there would need to be as three people doing three eight hour shifts, which becomes a hugely different prospect in terms of how costly that is, as well as shifts the live in arrangement with in a household because making room for three people or allowing three people to live out is it different setup then many countries have now. And this issue about standby hours is pretty clear within C 189. The standby hours are hours when a worker cannot freely leave and do what they want. And they should be paid and, and count as work hours. But there are arguments here that these aren’t working hours. And any regulation of hours in the sector means defining stand by hours and potentially running afoul of C 189.

And another sticky point that tends to be talked about is around Labor inspection. And there are worries that if a workplace can’t be inspected, then it can’t be governed. So this, there’s this logic that laws shouldn’t be put in place if they aren’t enforceable. And however, this is a bit of a tautological kind of circular excuse. The ILO has done a lot of work, showing that methods of inspection are possible. And in any case, non inspection doesn’t negate that domestic workers are workers, like any other worker and need protections and need to be included within labor laws.

Krithika Dinesh:

So we’ve talked about a lot of these grim laws and very bare minimum laws that are there and restrictions and organizing across Asia. So what do you think if we could have a more ideal world? What are the sort of key shifts that needs to happen for domestic workers rights to be realized? And what have you seen some of the upcoming opportunities for change in these areas?

Rebecca Napier Moore:

So, as I’ve been kind of alluding to in previous answers to questions you asked me is that full inclusion in labor laws is really a must. And changes needed in mindset to get to a norm, where societies think that and really believe that all workers deserve eight hour days, minimum wage, and rest. And to get to a norm where societies think and agree that care economies need shoring up through public funding, and realizing that current practices of caring for members of society through domestic workers working long hours, and for low pay, or exploitative ways to meet the care needs of a country.
In Southeast Asia, and other parts of Asia, formal care systems really are not well developed. And then domestic work becomes essential to the delivery of care. But it’s on an unequal basis, where more well off families can’t afford it. And less well, our families need to quit jobs to be able to meet the care needs within their households. A recent study found that, on average within three main destination countries in Southeast Asia, Thailand, Malaysia and Singapore, on average 62% of domestic workers are doing direct care work, and 99% are doing indirect care work, the cooking and cleaning. And when we looked at what tasks people are doing, we are able to measure against the international standard classification of occupations that domestic workers are doing medium skilled work, and that the care work that they’re undertaking, is medium skilled.

In the pandemic we as societies came to a place of recognizing that care work is essential. And our study showed that it’s also skilled. So we have skilled and essential workers, but workers that are continuing to work in poor conditions. We saw in the same study that domestic workers are reporting conditions that meet the ILOs definition of forced labor on a pretty high rate. So it was 29% In Malaysia, 7% in Singapore and 4% in Thailand. And I’ve shifted a little bit in this last answer to talk about care work. More specifically, and I think upcoming on the horizon, the care work discussion is our opportunity to make some changes. So the 112 International Labor Congress next year in 2024, will include a general discussion on decent work and the care economy.
And after COVID, there really is new attention being placed on care work. And we’ve been advocating that in care discussions at national levels and at global levels, that domestic workers need to be represented, and that their working conditions and even their own care needs, for their families need to be centered in global agendas.

Krithika Dinesh:

Thank you so much for joining us today, Rebecca, and for giving us these valuable insights. It’s incredulous how we still have so little in terms of legal protection for domestic workers. Despite the essential role they play in providing care for the old and the young. I hope that Asia sees many more ratifications, the full inclusion of domestic workers and labor laws, and real changes in their lives as a result of this. And a big thank you for listening, all of you. I hope you enjoy listening to this episode. We have links and resources in the description for those listeners who want to know more about how majority of domestic workers in Asia to lack legal rights and protections. In the upcoming episodes, we learn about what’s happening at the country level, including some of the examples that Rebecca touched on today. Until then, it’s goodbye from me. A Sonologue production.

Keywords: social justice, community building, activism, human rights, domestic workers, South Asia

Credits:

Guest: Rebecca Napier Moore – Technical Officer at the International Labour Organisation
Host: Krithika Dinesh
WIEGO Team:
Podcast Production: Chhavi Sachdev and the team at Sonologue: Sharad Joshi on sound design.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Domestic workers unite in Asia - Episode 1

Krithika Dinesh:

Hello, and welcome to a podcast about Domestic Workers Organizing For Legal Change In Asia. In this limited series podcast, you’ll hear from experts across Asia who worked to ensure the realization of domestic workers’ rights by campaigning for law reforms, lobbying government officials responsible for implementing legislation, and representing workers when their rights have been violated. They share breakthroughs, setbacks, and ongoing struggles.

I’m your host Krithika Dinesh. And in this first episode, we’re joined by Fish, who is the regional coordinator of the International Domestic Workers Federation, IDWF, in Asia. Despite having the most domestic workers in the world, organizing domestic workers in Asia is more recent compared to other regions. Domestic workers are, by nature of their work in private homes, isolated as a group. Traditional mindsets about servitude and home life make it hard for domestic workers to see themselves as workers. Fish walks us through what organizing looks like in this context and unpacks the different ways domestic workers achieve collective rights, including how domestic workers’ organizations are registered and recognized by governments and employers.

Fish also shares insights about why there’s little update by national governments of Convention 189, which is the international convention for domestic workers’ rights, and what actions IDWF is taking to change this? Stay tuned till the end to hear about Fish’s journey in the domestic workers movement.

Thank you so much, Fish, for joining us today. To start us off, could you tell us a little bit about IDWF and its presence in Asia?

Fish:

In the IDWF, we have 88 affiliates in 68 countries. The affiliates are all domestic workers, membership-based unions, if they are allowed to form unions, or associations. In Asia, we have 17 affiliates from 14 countries, many of them formed in the past 20-30 years. If we talk about organizing domestic workers in Asia, it is relatively younger compared to other regions like Latin America.

Krithika Dinesh:

That’s really interesting. Why is that the case that it’s much more recent in Asia?

Fish:

Actually, Asia has the biggest number of domestic workers in the world. It is the region that has the biggest number of domestic workers. I don’t have a particular answer for that, probably because we still have a lot of traditional thinking about how people see domestic workers, as maids and servants. And that really has given much constraint for domestic workers to be recognized, not only for the public and the society, how they see them as workers, but also the domestic workers themselves very often don’t see themselves as domestic workers. So many of our affiliates in the forming of the organization, they do a lot of training and education, reaching out to talk to the domestic workers one by one bit by bit, to, to talk with them, and to aware them, you know, you are a worker. So we really start from the very fundamental and basic.

Krithika Dinesh:

That leads to my second question. So just for the listeners, once C189 gets ratified, what happens? Are countries then mandated to have reforms in their national systems?

Fish:

Oh, yes. Once C189, the International Labor convention on domestic workers was ratified, was adopted in 2011. Then the member states of the UN, different countries have to do their homework. So they have to check on their law and also ratify the convention. Ratification means they have to make sure that their laws and policies are in line with C189, which is basically recognition of domestic workers’ rights and status as workers.

Krithika Dinesh:

And how has this worked in Asia? Have you seen many countries going and just ratifying and changing the laws? Or has it been more difficult since 2011?

Fish:

Yeah, since 2011, very sadly. Until now, we only have one country that has ratified C189, the Philippines. Only one. Yeah. I think Asia and MENA region, the Middle East and North Africa, are really in the bottom line if we talk about the rise for domestic workers. So in Asia, we have the Philippines, in the Philippines, they have the Kasambahay law, meaning the domestic workers law, they have some wage protection, social protection, etc. And our affiliates UNITED, has been doing organizing and has been a lot of dialogues with the governments in other countries. Many of us, the affiliates in Asia, have been fighting for inclusion of domestic workers in the labor law. For example, in Nepal, the labor law has been changed in 2017. So now domestic workers are recognized in the labor law. And the countries who are fighting for a separate domestic workers law, if it is too much difficult to change the labor law. So currently, actually, Indonesia that JALA PRT organizing domestic workers and has established eight domestic workers unions in ex provinces, they are fighting for their domestic workers law to be adopted at the parliament. So there have been ongoing protests in front of the parliament in Indonesia.

Krithika Dinesh:

Wow, that’s really inspiring. And so you spoke about these affiliates in different countries. So could you tell us more about who these affiliates are? What’s the nature and how are they organized? Are they trade unions? And earlier you spoke about membership based organizations – what do those look like?

Fish:

Yes, our affiliates are all democratically run membership based organizations and union meaning it is the members to decide for the Union the highest decision making the domestic workers at the annual general meeting or Congresses. So they will elect the leadership of domestic workers to operate and execute plan that proposed by the domestic workers and solve some problems when they have and also to negotiate and to represent domestic workers, when there will be dialogues with the government with the others and media interview etc. In Asia, we don’t have a lot of registered unions: only Hong Kong, Philippines, Nepal, India, where we have registered domestic workers union, meaning they are registered as union and they have got protection under the trade union laws in the countries and they have the union status. If we talk about bargaining and representation. The majority of the affiliates in Asia have domestic workers registered as Association.They may register as association or they may just have a group but not registered. So we also have one affiliate in South Korea who is running as registered cooperatives.

Krithika Dinesh:

Okay. And registering as a trade union would you say is more advantageous? What are the advantages like once you’re registered as a trade union of domestic workers.

Fish:

Once we are registered as a trade union of course, we are seen as union we are in the union movement although even when we are organizing the association there is still some hope how the other unions see us how the government see as is still sometimes they see us as NGO, but actually, under the definition of the ILO any workers organizations are unions. So, all our affiliates are just the same as unions under the definition of the ILO, but they may not get the union registration by the government. So, if we are able to get registered as a union, it depends on the national law on trade union protection. For example, in Hong Kong, the trade union ordinance protects the rights of unions in a few ways, for example, the union representative can represent workers at the Labor tribunal. At the labor tribunal, employers, workers cannot hire lawyers to ensure the cost will be not too much. And also to ensure that the workers have easier access and process for the labor tribunal. And it is the union who has its status to be able to represent the workers. And if the members, the workers being the workers being members of the trade union, then the employers cannot discriminate against the workers or fire, dismiss the workers due to their union activities. So these are some very basic trade union protection, if we are able to get registered. And then in other countries where the trade union has more protection, legally speaking, they may have collective bargaining agreements set so that the trade union will be sitting in the collective bargaining agreement table with employers and also the government so that they can set together to stand up for the conditions.

Krithika Dinesh:

Okay, you mentioned the negotiation table, the employers, government and the domestic worker, organization or union. So, I’ve been interested to know about the employers or employers organized across Asia, are the employers organizations, what does employers organizing look like?

Fish:

Yes, the employers of domestic workers are individuals in different households. So if you compare to the employers or Business Association, who are companies cooperates enterprises, that is very much different from the employers of domestic workers who are individual and when the employers have domestic workers or individual domestic workers are working in private households, then actually the government has a bigger role to play in this.So if we are talking about the employers of domestic workers, whether there have been association so informed, this is also an important question because many of the employers are not organized into their association. So that will give a question mark on who will be sitting in the negotiation table representing the employers, but somehow we do have a feel of the organization that represents employers. We have employers of migrant domestic workers association in Hong Kong, they have always been the spokesperson for all the issues of domestic workers representing employers in Hong Kong. And in other cases, some of our free days, we reach out to the residents’ association, or the house owners associations, who often hire domestic workers and can represent the employers of domestic workers. So we also reach out to these associations of residents or apartment or area residents association to pay the counterpart of the domestic workers in the negotiation table.

Krithika Dinesh:

Okay, so that is how employers are sort of organizing or organized. And what about domestic workers we spoke a bit about at the organizational level, but as we all know, domestic workers work in private homes, they are often isolated from each other. They don’t have office spaces to sort of meet their colleagues or any other opportunity to discuss their working conditions. So in such a situation, how do domestic workers organize like, could you just walk our listeners through the basic steps of how organizing for domestic workers looks like?

Fish:

Yeah. Many people will say organizing domestic workers is difficult in the sense that if you compare to organizing other workers, you just go to the factory in one workplace, you have everybody, every worker is there. But for domestic workers, they are scattered into different private households. So that means we have to walk a lot, we have to reach out to the community to the area go to house to house to talk to the domestic workers, and domestic workers to come out to do shopping, for food for their employees in the markets, we go to the markets, we go to the bus or public transport to talk to them. And if they have weekly day off, they have usually they get together in parks or gardens, like in the countries of destination of migrant workers, the migrant domestic workers often will come together in certain area, usually in the parks, or in somewhere that is comfortable for them to meet with people from the same country to enjoy their home food, the food from their home, country, etc.

So we need to do a lot of community based organizing, and walk a lot and talk to the workers one by one, talking to workers one by one. And we organize activities sometimes, actually, very often we organize the activities in the home of the domestic workers, or the back yard, in places where domestic workers leave. Or if there is, if there is a good employer, we can talk to the employer or the village head to share their home space for us to have domestic workers to meet. So very often we have different area groupings in the community.

Krithika Dinesh:

And is organizing more difficult with live-in domestic workers, domestic workers who live within the employers’ homes – do you use special strategies to reach them? I know in some countries, they reach out through social media or WhatsApp, because it’s sometimes very difficult for the worker to just get out and meet anybody.

Fish:

Currently, IDWF, the most organized, has either left out domestic workers working for multiple households, because they really can have their own time in their own house, although they do have family responsibility, which is another heavy burden for them. But they are more accessible than live in domestic workers for live in domestic workers, if they have quickly day off than is still better, for example, the migrant domestic workers in Hong Kong and some of the migrant domestic workers in Taiwan, Singapore, then you’ll find everybody in the park, then it is still reachable, but for migrant domestic workers who are living and also prohibited for going out of their home and even weekly day off than that is the most difficult and they are the most vulnerable to the abuses and exploitation. So, some of them, many of them are even restricted to mobile phones, not to say social media.

So with that, we have reached out to different Facebook groupings, because for migrant domestic workers, they will certainly want to look for their friends from their home country. So we reach out to different groups from social media and talk to them and some migrant domestic workers may have better employers or maybe we talk to the employer to allow the workers to have a weekly day off to come out to do some work. And then bit by bit she also knows the neighbors who are the other migrant domestic workers around, and then we talk to them and bit by bit, try to get the workers to have a day off or time off to join the organization or activities.

We do have some successful cases, turning migrant domestic workers without a day off to having a day off and having become a leader. Yes. So we have cases when, for example, in Malaysia around five years ago, there was a migrant domestic workers leader, who was being requested by another migrant domestic worker, her friend, to buy some sanitary products, napkins for her. So that worker bought sanitary products and napkins for her friend. And she was knocking at the door and it was an employer. So the employer was so surprised. In Malaysia, in general, the migrant domestic workers don’t have any weekly day off. So the employer was so surprised how come another migrant domestic worker can go out and go around on Sunday and buy the sanitary products and napkins for her own worker.

So then the leader talked to the employer, “Yes, I have the weekly day off, my employer gave me… how she feels better for herself, etc, etc.” And that inspired the employer and that employer later on, to allow her own worker to have a weekly day off and to join the organization or activities.

Another problem is the private employment agencies: very often, the workers pay huge amounts of money to the private employment agencies; the employers, some of them also pay a sum, then the private employment agencies are basically the controlling body for both employers and workers.

They want to make sure that the workers will pay the agency fee in debt, and then they will ensure that the workers will not be totally under their control so that they can ensure the money will be paid. That for the excessive agency fee. The employer also pays a sum and with traditional thinking, domestic workers being amazing servants, they feel they are their property. And so once they pay the agency fee it strengthens their feelings of owning the domestic workers, estimated servants and poverty. Sothey further restrict the domestic workers. Freedom of movement.

Krithika Dinesh:

Okay, so for migrant domestic workers, it’s harder because they’re from a foreign country, the employer is much more biased against them and has greater control over their movement?

Fish:

Yeah. And the biggest problem is, even the governments don’t see the private households, someone somewhere that you can check on. Because, yeah, we respect privacy, but at the same time, these private households are also a workplace. Once you have hired somebody, then there should be labor inspection. The workplace is just the same as other workplaces, like factories and shops. But these private houses are not being checked, not being inspected. And the domestic workers themselves often do not have access to complain channels. If we come to the police station, they will come to the labor offices, they also have a general feeling that we are amazing servants, and especially when there are no domestic workers laws, then how will you file a complaint?

Fish:

So yeah so this is a very big problem here.

Krithika Dinesh:

So you mentioned how domestic workers are seen as maids, servants, almost treated like slaves. And you have worked in this movement for decades. So have you seen a big shift in attitudes of employers or governments in sort of recognizing them as workers? Especially in those countries where there are laws that come in, did that help bring the shift?

Fish:

I can see it’s really shifting, I still remember in 2011, when we got the 789, the domestic workers international labor convention adopted is like, Oh, we cannot believe it is like magic. Yeah, we have been just doing a lot of organizing, making changes. We feel it’s like little, literally two things, we have made changes, but then literally little by little the change becomes big, even if we can, we could get an International Labor Standard on domestic workers. So the same is like our organizing work, which is daily basis, we handle and solve a lot of matters, and the spells and abuses and cases and do education and training, the change on the workers themselves, to recognize themselves as a human being as a worker, being able to speak up to the employer being able to be confident, more and confident to their own employer and also to the society to speak up in front of the village head or the government officers and other people.

When we talk about this, we are also talking about enabling society to have gender equality, to have women leadership, when we have women and domestic workers to speak up for themselves. And very often, when we are handling cases, for example, when there are beings, that you know, the employers just see domestic workers are maids, servants, and nobody, but then certainly when we mobilize and show up and turn up in front of the employers, then then they feel scared, scared in the way that how can these domestic workers can speak in front of me that can have like a magic in front of the employers, because they have been looking down on domestic workers and then they speak up certainly, then then they they of course, they never imagined that can be like that. And especially in the mass media, if you have a voice and voices and leadership represented in the mass media and the public, then you have a face. And it is the domestic workers who are talking about their issues. So the issues are real life issues and not made up issues. So these are all changes. And I have seen that bit by bit change.

Krithika Dinesh:

So the shift almost comes from bottom up and also, the international recognition – strengthens the bottom up empowerment. And it’s because domestic workers are more organized, speaking up more than now they’re being recognized more.

Fish:

Yes. Especially being a woman, being a domestic worker, being a migrant from a far away country to speak up. And then the society cannot reject listening to them. That’s the change.

Krithika Dinesh:

Yeah. And Fish before we let you go, I know you’ve been part of the domestic workers movement for more than 20 years now. So what inspired you to join the movement? And what keeps you going?

Fish:

Frankly speaking, in the beginning, I didn’t expect to work in the Union for so long. I come from a working-class family. My mother worked in garment factories and did some part-time domestic work. My father was a construction site manager, not at the lowest rank, but still low-ranking. I started working with some sense of social justice, like everyone else. Initially, I thought I’d work for two years and then explore new opportunities, as young people often do.

But I ended up staying in the domestic workers movement. One thing that really touched me was when we faced numerous problems like poverty, economic crises, and family issues. Despite these challenges, I was a frontline organizer. We held weekly gatherings where members shared their problems, experiences, and even cooking tips. When we discussed problems, everyone pitched in with ideas on how to solve them, bringing a sense of hope. Despite facing big problems, workers being together and sharing wisdom brought hope.

We tried different activities and approaches to solve problems gradually, making changes. This collective effort was powerful. We also engaged in protests and meetings with government officials. The first action I organized was a protest at an employment agency. Initially, a domestic worker was scared and hid behind a banner, but later, she became the MC for a Labor Day Rally.

One memorable encounter was when we met the labor secretary. We discussed how domestic work made our hands rough and caused occupational illnesses. So, we organized a handshake session with the labor secretary, making him feel the roughness of our hands. It was a fun experience. Despite the difficulties, we found humor, hope, and took action. Building the confidence to stand up and speak up is essential for everyone, it’s basic humanity.

Krithika Dinesh:

Let’s hope that there is more hope in the world.

Fish:

And yes, being together, bringing people together, we can always have hope.

Krithika Dinesh:

Thank you again, Fish for joining us today and giving us these amazing insights into what it takes to organize domestic workers, both locally and regionally. I think the stories you shared with us today will really stay with us. Domestic workers rights are, as you highlighted, extremely difficult to fight for when workers are so isolated from each other, and don’t necessarily see themselves as workers. I hope that organizing in Asia grows from strength to strength. And thank you for listening, everybody. To read more about the domestic workers movement in Asia. Please check the links in the description. In our next episode, we’ll be joined by special guests from the International Labor Organization who will walk us through different legal frameworks available to domestic workers in Asian countries. Until then, it’s goodbye from me.

Guest: Fish – Regional co-ordinator of the International Domestic Workers Federation (IDWF) in Asia
Host: Krithika Dinesh
Podcast production: Chhavi Sachdev and the team at Sonologue: Sharad Joshi on sound design.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai